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    Henle 1 versus 2nd Form

    My daughter was not able to get into Henle Latin 1 in MPOA this year so I put her in First Form. I have heard that First and Second Form are equivalent to Henle 1 Units 1-5, so I am planning to move her to Henle 1 Units 6-14 (or whatever the last unit is) in 10th grade, but I do not know if for 9th grade next year it would be better to do Second Form or Henle 1. I would love any opinions. Thank you!
    JeJe Greer
    Mom to:
    Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, and writing)
    Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

    #2
    If you are solid on the idea of having her do the Henle I part 2 in tenth, then I would recommend doing the Henle I part 1 in 9th. Henle lessons are set up differently than the Forms, using more translation all along the way. This necessitates more vocabulary. First Form would serve her well as a great foundation of how Latin works, but it will not give her all the vocab that Henle uses. For her to really do well, and since you have the chance/time, I would put her in Henle I.

    AMDG,
    Sarah
    2020-2021
    16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
    DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
    DS, 17
    DD, 15
    DD, 13
    DD, 11
    DD, 9
    DD, 7
    +DS+
    DS, 2

    Comment


      #3
      I would be tempted to put her in Henle for continuity if you were only going to go as far as second form. Are you doing the diploma program?
      Dorinda

      For 2020-2021
      DD 17-12th with MPOA(Classical Studies 3), CLRC (Latin 6, Greek 5), Thinkwell (Calculus and Chemistry), Vita Beata (Divine Comedy), American History
      DS 15-9th with Lukeion(Latin 1 and Greek 1), Vita Beata (9th Literature)
      DS 12-7th with Right Start Level H online class, Vita Beata (6th Literature)
      DS 6 - 2nd blazing our own trail with Right Start D and a mix of MP materials

      Comment


        #4
        Mom2mthj I am not sure about putting her in the diploma program because I am having trouble finding 5 classes that she can take online without conflicts. She has to take math and science at home since she is behind and needs to catch up, and I really want her to do Vita Beata for history and literature because that way I still get to teach them. I am concerned about making her take 9 classes just so one extra can be at MPOA.
        JeJe Greer
        Mom to:
        Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, and writing)
        Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

        Comment


          #5
          KF2000 I just saw that there is a 2nd Form Latin intensive over the summer, so I could put her in that and then have her do Third Form next year, followed by Fourth Form and then Henle, and she would still be able to do a translation class in 12th grade. Do you think that is a better option?
          JeJe Greer
          Mom to:
          Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, and writing)
          Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by jejegreer View Post
            Mom2mthj I am not sure about putting her in the diploma program because I am having trouble finding 5 classes that she can take online without conflicts. She has to take math and science at home since she is behind and needs to catch up, and I really want her to do Vita Beata for history and literature because that way I still get to teach them. I am concerned about making her take 9 classes just so one extra can be at MPOA.
            For us there weren’t enough higher level math or science classes offered, classes like classical studies four weren’t offered consistently, and there were no Latin options past AP Latin her junior year. She also had already completed High School comp 2 in middle school so there was only one class in that sequence left, she completed classical studies 1 &2 at home with the cores, and she had started Greek with another provider in eighth and would have used that as one elective. That made finding 5 classes to take at all her junior or senior year impossible even before considering scheduling conflicts. I also wasn’t willing to count classes from seventh grade toward graduation requirements even though it was mentioned. Things seem to be improving now that they have precalculus and a regular (non-algebra based, physics first class). It has worked well to use the early bird discount and just pick individual classes. I will admit to overthinking and excessive advance planning - I come by it naturally. I see the benefit of the diploma program if you have not taken MP classes in middle school and can start at the beginning of the sequences or plan to take several AP classes because those are going to be cheaper with diploma program than with early bird discount or if you need a diploma created for you for whatever reason. It is a wonderful option that I tried VERY hard to make work, bugging Mr. Piland to death I am sure, but just couldn’t figure out a plan and it all turned out just fine.

            FWIW - my advice would be don’t be concerned about 9 classes, just don’t give it mental space any longer than it takes to say the word no.
            Dorinda

            For 2020-2021
            DD 17-12th with MPOA(Classical Studies 3), CLRC (Latin 6, Greek 5), Thinkwell (Calculus and Chemistry), Vita Beata (Divine Comedy), American History
            DS 15-9th with Lukeion(Latin 1 and Greek 1), Vita Beata (9th Literature)
            DS 12-7th with Right Start Level H online class, Vita Beata (6th Literature)
            DS 6 - 2nd blazing our own trail with Right Start D and a mix of MP materials

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by jejegreer View Post
              KF2000 I just saw that there is a 2nd Form Latin intensive over the summer, so I could put her in that and then have her do Third Form next year, followed by Fourth Form and then Henle, and she would still be able to do a translation class in 12th grade. Do you think that is a better option?
              That IS an option, and the fact that MP offers that class makes me think that there are kids for whom it would work. Personally, I would not do that unless I had a student who had taken to Latin like a duck to water and could learn an entire level that quickly. I am always in favor of slow and steady rather than fast and messy, and that’s what I have to help teach to my kids.

              So it would be about what is the right fit for your daughter. Do you think she could handle the memorization of a level that is a small but still significant step up from First Form?

              Keep in mind...both paths of learning Latin are very, very good. Cherl Lowe herself loved Henle for high school students. You will be making a good choice no matter which route you take. It really comes down to how much and how fast your daughter can handle learning the material.

              AMDG,
              Sarah

              2020-2021
              16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
              DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
              DS, 17
              DD, 15
              DD, 13
              DD, 11
              DD, 9
              DD, 7
              +DS+
              DS, 2

              Comment


                #8
                Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
                1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
                2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
                I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

                Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.

                DD13—MP7, MPOA
                DS7—MP1

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by KF2000 View Post

                  I am always in favor of slow and steady rather than fast and messy, and that’s what I have to help teach to my kids.


                  Oh, Sarah.

                  New motto for the year. LOVE THIS.
                  Plans for 2020-21

                  Year 10 of homeschooling with MP

                  DD1 - 25 - Small Business owner with a STOREFRONT
                  DD2 - 14 - 9th grade - HLS Cottage School/MPOA - equestrian
                  DS3 - 12 - 5A Cottage School - soccer
                  DS4 - 12 - 5A Cottage School -soccer
                  DD5 - 8 - 3A, Cottage School -equestrian and Irish dance
                  DS6 - 6 - MP K - home with Momma

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
                    Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
                    1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
                    2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
                    I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

                    Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.
                    As Dianna quoted me above (💖), the same applies to your decision as well. Your son has been in FFL, has been doing well, and is probably perfectly suited toward moving on into SFL next year. There is very little to be gained from speeding up that plan, but there is so much to be gained by sticking with the plan you are on - which is to simply follow the path of the Forms.

                    The advice I was giving to JeJe was for her specific situation, in dealing with a student who is already going to be in high school, and who will have the help of the teacher from MPOA. She is trying to decide on one specific path, for one specific child. The suggestion to use Henle fits well with her situation. But that does not mean it needs to be a strategy for everyone to take.

                    It is true that Henle and the Forms cover the same essential material - the majority of the Latin grammar (that which is necessary to move on into translation courses). But that does not mean they are without differences. Henle takes an approach that does much more translation practice all along the way, which means there is a lot more vocabulary to be learned too. This is actually harder than the approach the Forms takes. The Forms keep translation to a minimum so as to keep the amount of vocabulary to a minimum. But that does not mean that the Forms are a walk in the park. They still require a huge investment of mental energy and the time commitment to do well. This is best not rushed. The proof of this is that teachers of Latin who have access to students of the Forms and students of Henle I do notice a difference. Students of the Forms have had more drill, more slow and steady work, and therefore have a greater sense of ease with their translation work. It only makes sense that taking four years to cover the same general material as another program does in two is going to result in children for whom Latin becomes much better ingrained in their memories and can be tapped into more confidently.

                    This does not contradict what I said above; they are both great programs. But the differences between them do lead to different outcomes, and it is good to be aware of those differences. I have had children take the Henle path, the Forms path, and even one who wibble-wobbled between the two for a long time. She is my best reference on this in that she has confirmed that learning with the Forms was what finally helped her be successful with Latin.

                    AMDG,
                    Sarah
                    2020-2021
                    16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
                    DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
                    DS, 17
                    DD, 15
                    DD, 13
                    DD, 11
                    DD, 9
                    DD, 7
                    +DS+
                    DS, 2

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
                      Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
                      1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
                      2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
                      I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

                      Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.
                      It may depend on your son and your aspirations as to which route would be better. Do you hope for him to take AP Latin by 12th grade? If so, doing Henle over the next two years will give him the time to do that. He would have three years left to do Henle II, Mueller, and Cicero or AP in 12th. Is he moving out of the stage where he enjoys memorizing forms, or is he fine with that? Would he enjoy more reading passages? Forms and vocabulary are also mastered by seeing them used in context. The exercises and reading passages in Henle I are very interesting and accustom students to the Caesar vocabulary used in Henle II and also the themes of The Gallic War -- although there are also passages about many other topics besides the Gallic War. However, if he is content and doing very well in First Form, you may not want to leave the Forms. Either way you decide, he will be on a great path to learning Latin..

                      Cheers.
                      Bonnie

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sarah,

                        Thank you so much for your considerate, and clearly written, response. This makes so much more sense now, since I really had no idea of the nuance between the Forms and Henle. I had initially read your post late at night and posted my question the next day. Once I re-read your post, indeed thanks to Diana's quote reply, I realized you had implicitly answered my question—especially as it pertained to the “rushed” path.

                        As Bonnie alluded to (thanks, Bonnie!), I think my concern was not being able to get to AP Latin by 12th grade. Moreover, I think the description for MPOA’s Second Form Latin Intensive summer course confused me a bit, where it says “It is meant only for Grade 8+ students who have taken First Form Latin and want to get through Fourth Form Latin or a translation class by their senior year.” But now I realize that if my son continues the Forms, he will still have two translation classes: Henle II and Henle III, in 11th and 12th grade, respectively.

                        Although that means he wouldn’t be on track to take AP Latin, I’m really not going to lose sleep over it. I much prefer he continue to Second Form next year at a pace and format he is already comfortable with, instead of stressing him with something new.
                        DD13—MP7, MPOA
                        DS7—MP1

                        Comment


                          #13
                          karl_bark ,

                          I am glad it was helpful. Bonnie’s response was so good too, as the goals you have do affect the decision too. Sounds like you have realistic goals and a good plan to get there!

                          AMDG,
                          Sarah
                          2020-2021
                          16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
                          DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
                          DS, 17
                          DD, 15
                          DD, 13
                          DD, 11
                          DD, 9
                          DD, 7
                          +DS+
                          DS, 2

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
                            Sarah,

                            Thank you so much for your considerate, and clearly written, response. This makes so much more sense now, since I really had no idea of the nuance between the Forms and Henle. I had initially read your post late at night and posted my question the next day. Once I re-read your post, indeed thanks to Diana's quote reply, I realized you had implicitly answered my question—especially as it pertained to the “rushed” path.

                            As Bonnie alluded to (thanks, Bonnie!), I think my concern was not being able to get to AP Latin by 12th grade. Moreover, I think the description for MPOA’s Second Form Latin Intensive summer course confused me a bit, where it says “It is meant only for Grade 8+ students who have taken First Form Latin and want to get through Fourth Form Latin or a translation class by their senior year.” But now I realize that if my son continues the Forms, he will still have two translation classes: Henle II and Henle III, in 11th and 12th grade, respectively.

                            Although that means he wouldn’t be on track to take AP Latin, I’m really not going to lose sleep over it. I much prefer he continue to Second Form next year at a pace and format he is already comfortable with, instead of stressing him with something new.
                            I believe that a kid who takes Henle II with MPOA can move on to AP Latin. When done with MPOA, Henle II is a translation course. Hopefully someone can correct me if that is wrong, because that is what I am doing with my oldest. I backed her up to Henle I after finishing the Forms because she failed to learn the vocabulary which made Henle II with MPOA quite difficult.
                            DD 16 | 11th
                            DS 14 | 8th
                            DD 12 | 7A

                            12th Year HSing, 8th Year MP

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think you are right. I believe Paul wrote that, in MPOA, after Henle II, it is possible for a student to go into AP Latin -- although many will take Henle III before AP (where Mueller is covered, along with the Aeneid texts).

                              Going back to Karl's son, if he continues online, he could do AP in 12th grade.

                              It is so easy in our discussions to confuse the homeschool path (Henle II, Mueller, Henle III, AP) with the MPOA path where Henle II is followed (ideally, but not always) by Henle III, then AP Latin. Please someone correct me if this is wrong.

                              Bonnie


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