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Henle 1 versus 2nd Form

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  • jejegreer
    replied

    momgineer , KF2000, and Bonnie OK, we are definitely skipping the summer Latin. Stella still wants to take the Forms series instead of Henle since it will give her more time for learning Russian and the extra math she is going to have to do to catch up. I see that she can still be in MPOA if she completes the Forms because she can take Henle 2 as a senior. I am starting to worry that I am pushing her too much and wonder if this is where I should give in. I really need to pick these things out so I can order my curriculum by Friday. Indecisiveness is a serious problem in my house.

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  • Bonnie
    replied
    JeJe,

    I think you can put your mind at ease that she can skip Latin in the summer and go to Henle I, units 1-5 in the autumn. As you probably know, the first two Forms do not necessarily equate to Henle I, units 1-5, as different programs teach concepts in different sequence. If she likes reading sentences and passages, then she will profit from going through Henle from the very beginning. (And, should she continue Latin beyond the Henle I years, she would be prepared to do very well in Henle II.)

    Bonnie

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  • KF2000
    replied
    Agreeing with Debbie! 👍🏼
    AMDG,
    Sarah

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  • momgineer
    replied
    For sure I’d say skip the summer and so Henle 1 1-5 in the fall. You wish to take Latin slow and steady so as to focus on other things. So, start at the start in the fall- Henle 1 1-5. Take the summer off. Give the girl freedom to explore her passions. Let her build her invention and delve into Russian. If you really feel a need to maintain an academic structure in the summer, spend the time on math and not Latin, but mostly set her loose and let her fly with her passions. Elite colleges are going to be much more interested in that invention or that she self taught Russian than her academic transcript.

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  • jejegreer
    replied
    KF2000 I appreciate your reply so much, as well as Bonnie"s reply. I am trying to consider the responses seriously. I tried to do Henle 1 with Stella in 7th grade. We got through units 1 and 2. We both learned a lot, but she was actually better at it than me, and I think I was hurting her more than helping her. Stella loves translation. This makes me really think that Henle is a better choice as you suggested.
    ​​​​​​
    Stella wants to learn Russian. In fact, she has already taught herself a basic knowledge of it (verbally anyway), and has gone so far as to install the Russian Cyrillic alphabet on my phone because she has decided to only text her parents in Russian to practice writing. I think that this is the only online forum where anyone will appreciate this!

    I want to get Stella through the MPOA required Latin in case we decide to join the high school in 10th grade, and do not feel the need for any more Latin than the minimum requirements. I honestly would prefer that her Latin is easier so that she can devote more time to things like Russian and building her invention.

    With that in mind, and knowing that she likes translation, would you think it is better to do 2nd Form over the summer followed by Henle 1, units 1-5, 2nd Form over the summer followed by Henle 1 units 6-14, or just skip the summer and do Henle 1 units 1-5 for the next school year?

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  • tanya
    replied
    You are correct on all counts, Bonnie! MPOA covers Caesar and Vergil in the AP year, whereas we cover Caesar before the AP year and spend the AP year on Vergil with some Caesar review thrown in. But we have total control over who is entering our program - we know what the students have already done because of the requirements we have placed on them. We don't have students from all sorts of Latin backgrounds coming into our Latin classes like MPOA does.

    Tanya

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  • Bonnie
    replied
    I think you are right. I believe Paul wrote that, in MPOA, after Henle II, it is possible for a student to go into AP Latin -- although many will take Henle III before AP (where Mueller is covered, along with the Aeneid texts).

    Going back to Karl's son, if he continues online, he could do AP in 12th grade.

    It is so easy in our discussions to confuse the homeschool path (Henle II, Mueller, Henle III, AP) with the MPOA path where Henle II is followed (ideally, but not always) by Henle III, then AP Latin. Please someone correct me if this is wrong.

    Bonnie


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  • jenniferjb
    replied
    Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
    Sarah,

    Thank you so much for your considerate, and clearly written, response. This makes so much more sense now, since I really had no idea of the nuance between the Forms and Henle. I had initially read your post late at night and posted my question the next day. Once I re-read your post, indeed thanks to Diana's quote reply, I realized you had implicitly answered my question—especially as it pertained to the “rushed” path.

    As Bonnie alluded to (thanks, Bonnie!), I think my concern was not being able to get to AP Latin by 12th grade. Moreover, I think the description for MPOA’s Second Form Latin Intensive summer course confused me a bit, where it says “It is meant only for Grade 8+ students who have taken First Form Latin and want to get through Fourth Form Latin or a translation class by their senior year.” But now I realize that if my son continues the Forms, he will still have two translation classes: Henle II and Henle III, in 11th and 12th grade, respectively.

    Although that means he wouldn’t be on track to take AP Latin, I’m really not going to lose sleep over it. I much prefer he continue to Second Form next year at a pace and format he is already comfortable with, instead of stressing him with something new.
    I believe that a kid who takes Henle II with MPOA can move on to AP Latin. When done with MPOA, Henle II is a translation course. Hopefully someone can correct me if that is wrong, because that is what I am doing with my oldest. I backed her up to Henle I after finishing the Forms because she failed to learn the vocabulary which made Henle II with MPOA quite difficult.

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  • KF2000
    replied
    karl_bark ,

    I am glad it was helpful. Bonnie’s response was so good too, as the goals you have do affect the decision too. Sounds like you have realistic goals and a good plan to get there!

    AMDG,
    Sarah

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  • karl_bark
    replied
    Sarah,

    Thank you so much for your considerate, and clearly written, response. This makes so much more sense now, since I really had no idea of the nuance between the Forms and Henle. I had initially read your post late at night and posted my question the next day. Once I re-read your post, indeed thanks to Diana's quote reply, I realized you had implicitly answered my question—especially as it pertained to the “rushed” path.

    As Bonnie alluded to (thanks, Bonnie!), I think my concern was not being able to get to AP Latin by 12th grade. Moreover, I think the description for MPOA’s Second Form Latin Intensive summer course confused me a bit, where it says “It is meant only for Grade 8+ students who have taken First Form Latin and want to get through Fourth Form Latin or a translation class by their senior year.” But now I realize that if my son continues the Forms, he will still have two translation classes: Henle II and Henle III, in 11th and 12th grade, respectively.

    Although that means he wouldn’t be on track to take AP Latin, I’m really not going to lose sleep over it. I much prefer he continue to Second Form next year at a pace and format he is already comfortable with, instead of stressing him with something new.

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  • Bonnie
    replied
    Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
    Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
    1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
    2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
    I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

    Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.
    It may depend on your son and your aspirations as to which route would be better. Do you hope for him to take AP Latin by 12th grade? If so, doing Henle over the next two years will give him the time to do that. He would have three years left to do Henle II, Mueller, and Cicero or AP in 12th. Is he moving out of the stage where he enjoys memorizing forms, or is he fine with that? Would he enjoy more reading passages? Forms and vocabulary are also mastered by seeing them used in context. The exercises and reading passages in Henle I are very interesting and accustom students to the Caesar vocabulary used in Henle II and also the themes of The Gallic War -- although there are also passages about many other topics besides the Gallic War. However, if he is content and doing very well in First Form, you may not want to leave the Forms. Either way you decide, he will be on a great path to learning Latin..

    Cheers.
    Bonnie

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  • KF2000
    replied
    Originally posted by karl_bark View Post
    Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
    1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
    2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
    I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

    Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.
    As Dianna quoted me above (💖), the same applies to your decision as well. Your son has been in FFL, has been doing well, and is probably perfectly suited toward moving on into SFL next year. There is very little to be gained from speeding up that plan, but there is so much to be gained by sticking with the plan you are on - which is to simply follow the path of the Forms.

    The advice I was giving to JeJe was for her specific situation, in dealing with a student who is already going to be in high school, and who will have the help of the teacher from MPOA. She is trying to decide on one specific path, for one specific child. The suggestion to use Henle fits well with her situation. But that does not mean it needs to be a strategy for everyone to take.

    It is true that Henle and the Forms cover the same essential material - the majority of the Latin grammar (that which is necessary to move on into translation courses). But that does not mean they are without differences. Henle takes an approach that does much more translation practice all along the way, which means there is a lot more vocabulary to be learned too. This is actually harder than the approach the Forms takes. The Forms keep translation to a minimum so as to keep the amount of vocabulary to a minimum. But that does not mean that the Forms are a walk in the park. They still require a huge investment of mental energy and the time commitment to do well. This is best not rushed. The proof of this is that teachers of Latin who have access to students of the Forms and students of Henle I do notice a difference. Students of the Forms have had more drill, more slow and steady work, and therefore have a greater sense of ease with their translation work. It only makes sense that taking four years to cover the same general material as another program does in two is going to result in children for whom Latin becomes much better ingrained in their memories and can be tapped into more confidently.

    This does not contradict what I said above; they are both great programs. But the differences between them do lead to different outcomes, and it is good to be aware of those differences. I have had children take the Henle path, the Forms path, and even one who wibble-wobbled between the two for a long time. She is my best reference on this in that she has confirmed that learning with the Forms was what finally helped her be successful with Latin.

    AMDG,
    Sarah

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  • DiannaKennedy
    replied
    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post

    I am always in favor of slow and steady rather than fast and messy, and that’s what I have to help teach to my kids.


    Oh, Sarah.

    New motto for the year. LOVE THIS.

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  • karl_bark
    replied
    Interesting thread. My son is in 7th and is doing FFL through MPOA. I just registered him for Second Form for the upcoming school year (8th grade), assuming we were just going to go through the Form series. Now I'm wondering which would be a better option:
    1. Start Henle I Units 1-5 in Fall instead of SFL.
    2. Take SFL Intensive over the Summer and start Henle I Units 6-14 in Fall.
    I don't think we're in a rush, but doing Latin over the Summer could be a good way to keep him busy (along with getting ready for Algebra I though Khan Academy). I do wonder how intensive it is though in terms of time commitment.

    Is there an advantage of trying to get ahead in Latin? We are still in the middle of our first year of homeschooling.

    Leave a comment:


  • KF2000
    replied
    Originally posted by jejegreer View Post
    KF2000 I just saw that there is a 2nd Form Latin intensive over the summer, so I could put her in that and then have her do Third Form next year, followed by Fourth Form and then Henle, and she would still be able to do a translation class in 12th grade. Do you think that is a better option?
    That IS an option, and the fact that MP offers that class makes me think that there are kids for whom it would work. Personally, I would not do that unless I had a student who had taken to Latin like a duck to water and could learn an entire level that quickly. I am always in favor of slow and steady rather than fast and messy, and that’s what I have to help teach to my kids.

    So it would be about what is the right fit for your daughter. Do you think she could handle the memorization of a level that is a small but still significant step up from First Form?

    Keep in mind...both paths of learning Latin are very, very good. Cherl Lowe herself loved Henle for high school students. You will be making a good choice no matter which route you take. It really comes down to how much and how fast your daughter can handle learning the material.

    AMDG,
    Sarah

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