Should I outsource?

[jen1134]

I realized the other day that next year's Cicero/Augustine course will be pretty deep. I'll already be teaching Divine Comedy to my two oldest boys. I know they're going to need guidance to understand these works so I can't just hand them off. How doable would it be to teach Divine Comedy and Cicero/Augustine to two high schoolers when I have 5 other children to teach? Should I consider outsourcing Cicero/Augustine?

[tanya]

Jennifer,

Both of these classes are going to be a challenge. You could consider Dante to be your literature, Christian, and classical studies and push Cicero to next year. There is no reason to overwhelm yourself. Personally, I think Dante would be better not to miss. But if you don't get to Cicero, it's no big deal. Your students won't go to college with too many peers who have read any of this!

Tanya

[jen1134]

Jennifer,

Both of these classes are going to be a challenge. You could consider Dante to be your literature, Christian, and classical studies and push Cicero to next year. There is no reason to overwhelm yourself. Personally, I think Dante would be better not to miss. But if you don't get to Cicero, it's no big deal. Your students won't go to college with too many peers who have read any of this!

Tanya

I agree, but the tricky part is that my oldest will be wrapping up junior year and starting/completing senior year. He chose to double up so he can graduate sooner since we held him back in 7th grade; he's doing very well with it, so we're letting him continue the pace. I'm trying to include Cicero for him as a senior year government credit. But he would still need economics anyway....

Maybe I should just do a "normal" government/economics course for him and then let my second son dive into Cicero during his senior year. I hate for my oldest to miss it though since he's not planning to go to college (headed for auto mechanics or woodworking). What do you think?

[tanya]

Do you need an entire year of Cicero, or could you do a semester? I could ask our teacher if she feels like On Obligations or Republic and the Laws would be best if you had to choose one. But it sounds like he is motivated and could get both done if you use Dante for literature and add on some Cicero. And, it may be that if he takes it in MPOA, it won't be a lot of additional work outside of class. Those study guides are certainly less detailed than the Dante one. I'm a fan with older students of attempting more and then cutting back if needed. Give him the chance to do both, and if you feel he is drowning, you can make a decision about what to drop. Maybe he will love Cicero and only complete the Inferno for Dante. That wouldn't be so bad. (But don't tell him that is an option yet. Just keep an eye on him.) The advantage to this is that since he isn't going to college, you can wear him out academically this year, and trade school will seem easy!

Tanya

[pickandgrin]

Jen,
I would encourage you to focus on Dante as a teacher, and then hand him Cicero to do on his own. It is very relatable and shockingly relevant. I have known another high school student who self studied this and found it doable and very interesting. His comment to his mother was this, "Everyone should have to read this!" I am preparing to substitute teach Book 2 of Republic on Monday and just read through a passage which explains why a National Popular Vote is probably a bad idea.

[KF2000]

Jen,
I like Jessica’s idea. I wanted to encourage you to fit it in somehow, but not to feel taxed by it and Jessica’s response solves that. When my E did it, she self-studied, and I checked her work. It was wonderful for me even to do that! And it helped plant a seed of concern over politics in her that nothing else had, which I think is important for them before finishing high school.

AMDG,
Sarah

[pickandgrin]

Oh, and I pulled out Augustine to do the following year. I am counting Divine Comedy as enough for Lit/Christian Studies this year. My plan is to have him self study Augustine next year with the guide. After reading things like Divine Comedy these students can understand a lot more than I could at that age. Plus, you don't have to mine every detail from the text for it to be a significant academic and formational experience. Skimming the surface of a great work is still a great adventure, and we hope is their first, but not last, pass through.

[jen1134]

Hmmm...I have a copy of Cicero around here somewhere. Maybe I’ll have him read a section and check comprehension. He struggles with anything that isn’t straightforward (Locke, Shakespeare, Newton) so that’s why I’m worried about whether self-study would work.
tanya thank you so much for checking on this! Would you be able to ask which one is the most straightforward of his works?

[tanya]

Jennifer,

Here's the answer from our teacher:

As far as which is the most straightforward, I would probably recommend On Obligations, rather than Republic and Laws.

The dialogue format Republic and Laws makes it especially difficult, and it has a lot of sections where we are missing part of the text, which makes it harder to follow and more frustrating to read. The content in On Obligations also tends to be a bit more practical, so all in all I'd say it's the best choice.

Tanya

[pickandgrin]

Totally agree with On Obligations as top choice for easier reading. jen1134 I am looking at the table of contents now, and we scheduled out this book over 18 weeks giving one week each for the lessons plus one week each for midterm and final. You could very easily split that pace in half and cover one lesson every two weeks instead. That would give you a full-year course and there may be some lessons that are easier to combine if you want to save time. In both of the Cicero Teacher Guides there are very helpful synopsis pages at the beginning which outline the individual sections as well as the subject matter paragraph by paragraph. An alternate way to approach the material would be to have him use the Teacher Guide itself to walk through the questions rather than have him read the questions and hunt for the answers in the text. Then he could sit down and talk with you or your husband about the Thought Questions that are included for each lesson. That would give it a very different feel than simply working through the Student Guide. This is actually recommended in the teaching guidelines in that it says that the majority of "class time" should be spent on the Thought Questions. I will PM you a few examples to see.

[jen1134]

tanya pickandgrin Thank you both! This is incredibly helpful.

[itsdj7]

Oh, and I pulled out Augustine to do the following year. I am counting Divine Comedy as enough for Lit/Christian Studies this year. My plan is to have him self study Augustine next year with the guide. After reading things like Divine Comedy these students can understand a lot more than I could at that age. Plus, you don't have to mine every detail from the text for it to be a significant academic and formational experience. Skimming the surface of a great work is still a great adventure, and we hope is their first, but not last, pass through.

Hi!!
I was wondering how you give credit in 2 subjects with 1 item of study on a Transcript? - for example, you're giving credit in both Lit and Christian Studies for work done in The Divine Comedy. How do you show that? Is it 1 full credit in each subject? New to this idea, but as that is a great work (and a bit heavy!) that can count for either or both, I like the both option!! Thanks so much for help with this!!

[pickandgrin]

Hi!!
I was wondering how you give credit in 2 subjects with 1 item of study on a Transcript? - for example, you're giving credit in both Lit and Christian Studies for work done in The Divine Comedy. How do you show that? Is it 1 full credit in each subject? New to this idea, but as that is a great work (and a bit heavy!) that can count for either or both, I like the both option!! Thanks so much for help with this!!

Hello there! Good question for clarification.
When I say that I'm "counting Dante" as Lit/Christian Studies what I mean is this: Dante goes on the transcript as a lit credit. In Tennessee, that means I'm counting it as "English 10/11 (whenever grade)." However, I'm merely mentally counting it as my kiddo's Christian Studies work for the year as well.
To graduate in Tennessee you only need 22 required credits, six of which are electives. The umbrella program that I use, Homelife Academy, will only accept eight credits per school year so that it does not look like you (homeschool parent) are padding the transcript.
With the basic required state courses and the additional Latin, classics, logic, rhetoric, etc., I ran out of credit space on the transcript. I cannot give credit on the transcript for everything I have them do during high school. If your child applies to college, then you can include a very succinct reading list/book list with the application and that is a place to show off the texts your student has read without the limits of course names or credits.

I actually did the opposite of what you are asking about as well. I will add it here just for reference. Because I had a limited number of credits I could show, I bundled the literature class with Classical Composition and called that English 9/10/11/12 Honors. It qualifies as an honors class based on 1) the content of the literature course and 2) the combined coursework load from two classes. But it is one credit on the transcript.

Of course, requirements will vary by state, umbrella program (if applicable), and college admissions preferences (if applicable).

HTH!