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    #31
    Good point Sarah!!! Both of my kids who took Gen Chem 1 at cc had already had lab based high school chemistry through Kolbe Academy with virtual labs. Novare chemistry with labs would also work. The idea, for us, with going to cc senior year was not to have them teach the high school, or first exposure, level (which they can. It’s usually called introductory chemistry). We had already had the big three bio, chem, trig physics and were ready for college level. This is the same as taking AP chem senior year. AP chem is almost always taken after a regular high school chem.
    Always check with the college you want to dual enroll in. Some only offer limited selections for dual enroll. Most have prerequisites. Dual enrollment senior year is a great option for those advanced students who get through high school bio, chem, trig physics and need to keep moving. Gen Chem is a great option because it will be needed for many degree’s gen ed requirements and gives actual rather than virtual lab exposure. If your student is medicine focused, still chemistry is a great idea or an Anatomy class or a molecular biology. Future Life science majors could look into a variety of biology classes or just go for General Biology. We have always chosen chemistry because it is more versatile and seems to apply no matter what they major in. But you can follow your child’s interest if desired.
    Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
    DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
    DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
    DS, 21, chemistry major
    DS, 18, Physics major
    DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
    DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
    DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

    Comment


      #32
      Absolutely. Also...just to help others who are new at this...I think what Debbie is describing is known as "dual credit" rather than "dual enrollment."


      momgineer ...does yours count as "dual enrollment" since your kids are "enrolled" at Kolbe?

      Otherwise, "dual enrollment" means a child is enrolled in one school (typically at their local public school) but then is allowed to also enroll at the CC in order to get more advanced classes than what are offered at the high school. Our CC is so good, that many of the high schools in our area that feed into it don't bother having AP level classes of their own because they just bus the high schoolers over to CC for "dual enrollment."

      But if you have a homeschooled child who is taking classes at CC that will count as both finishing up high school but are also transferrable to a college program, that is called "dual credit;" as in, credits that count for high school AND for college at the same time.

      Not every class a child takes at CC will work for dual credit though. CC's offer high school level classes that you can count as their high school requirements, but that DO NOT count as college level classes. It depends on the level that each class is.

      Take our chemistry example:

      A. CC high school level introduction to chem class with a lab...counts as high school credit only; cannot be used to satisfy a college-level general education requirement.

      B. CC college level introduction to chem class with a lab (but also has a prerequisite of high school chem with lab)...can count toward high school science credits AND toward a college general education requirement.


      In our case, he only wants to take one high school chem class. Since we are able to do the high school level w/labs at home for far cheaper than the CC class, that is what we opted to do. But conversely, for physics, he's already had the intro level high school physics and he wants to take more of it. So he is going to take that at the CC next year because then it will be "dual credit" - another credit for high school science, but also a credit toward college gen ed requirements / engineering program credits.

      Also, things that a child is able to take as "dual credit" help them begin earning college credits that can cut down on what they have to take once they enter college but do not make them "transfer" students. They can still enter as true freshmen.

      But before you decide on any class at the CC, check the prereqs, and check a few colleges that your child is interested in to make sure it is something that will be accepted. If you stick with basic content areas, you have a stronger likelihood it is something that will transfer...science, math, English, etc. But you always want to look at the class numbers to be sure. A local college will often have a chart that compares the class numbers of the CC classes with what they will transfer as into their program if they accept them. This can be really helpful in deciding what classes your child should consider at the CC, even if that is not the specific college he or she wants to attend.

      These are just some things we have learned over the past year!

      AMDG,
      Sarah
      2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
      DD, 19, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
      DS, 16
      DD, 14
      DD, 12
      DD, 10
      DD, 8
      DD, 6
      +DS+
      DS, 2

      Comment


        #33
        Sarah- around here it’s just always referred to as dual enrollment. They are enrolled in high school (whether public, private, homeschool enrollment like Kolbe, or simply in your own homeschool) and also are enrolled at the college. Credits earned count for both high school (one semester equals one full high school credit if it is a college level class) and for college. Whether the credits you earned through the college count toward your degree at another college is purely up to the final college. I think the terms “dual credit” and “dual enrollment” are pretty much the same. Perhaps other localities handle it differently.
        Around here, many like to use the cc for high school classes they can’t handle themselves. Many will take algebra 2 and “College algebra” which is precalculus minus the trig at cc. The college algebra does count as college credit if that is all the higher math you want. Many here also take intro science class that are high school level and even remedial English classes. It is also very popular here to max out dual enrollment which here is limited to 6 credit hours per semester each semester the student is 16 or older. So many can get in 5 semesters or 30 credit hours. They enroll in math, science, foreign language, history, psychology, English and just about any gen ed they think will transfer. The down side to this is these are “public school” classes with all the public school ideology. Plus our cc’s have become, in a way, glorified high school grades 13 and 14 with a bunch of kids who don’t really want to be there any more than they wanted to be in their public high school. Thus classes are hit and miss whether they are good. You lose out on the ability to offer a classical, Christian education because you are using typical public school focused classes. The benefit is you get up to 30 college credits and can greatly reduce you time and money at the university. For us, we chose to focus on classical, Christian education and only use cc when our kids have simply passed what we can do at home- which for us means any math beyond Calc 1 and any science beyond the main 3.
        In some locations, the state pays for dual enrollment (or dual credit) and kids can enroll full time in the cc their junior and senior year and graduate high school with an associate degree. Not here in Missouri- we have to pay full cost for cc enrollment (currently around $100 per credit hour). We also have a few universities who offer discounted dual enrollment courses for $50-$100 a credit hour, but their selections are more limited than what you can take at cc. At the cc you can take anything you want that you have the prerequisites for.
        Also- our cc will accept a transcript (can be homemade) stating you passed a science class and will allow you to enroll in the college level science class, but for math, unless you have an AP test score, they make you take a placement test to see what math class you can take. My oldest had earned an A in precalculus and wanted to take calc her senior year at the cc. She didn’t pass the precalc placement test because she forgot one specific trig identity and it wouldn’t let her go past that. So they made her retake precalc. She chose not to and did an advanced topics in math/very intro calc course at home and then at her university they used SAT score to place math and she was allowed to take calculus. So sometimes what the cc will let you take may not be based on what you have already passed in high school but rather where you place in their placement test. They use a placement test for English too and any foreign language if you want to start beyond the first semester level of that language.
        Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
        DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
        DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
        DS, 21, chemistry major
        DS, 18, Physics major
        DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
        DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
        DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Melisa Burke View Post

          Cindy,

          My son will be in 8th grade next year and I am trying to determine the best course of action for him. He is not a particularly strong math and science student. We are currently doing Tiner science for 7th grade. He will take College of the Redwoods for math in 8th grade. We are just finishing Rod and Staff 7. I had thought that we would do Novare Earth Science in 8th and then Novare Physical Science in 9th with an added lab. That would put us doing Intro to Physics in 10th, Biology in 11th and Chemistry in 12th. What are your thoughts on this scenario? Can I make the physical science robust enough for a 9th grade class? Would Earth Science be better for 9th and do physical science in 8th? I appreciate your help.
          I'm bumping this up in case Cindy didn't see my question. Thanks.
          Melisa

          Homeschooling mom for 10 years

          dd - 9th grade using MP and Homeschool Connections
          ds - 7th grade using MP

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by momgineer View Post
            Sarah- around here it’s just always referred to as dual enrollment. They are enrolled in high school (whether public, private, homeschool enrollment like Kolbe, or simply in your own homeschool) and also are enrolled at the college. Credits earned count for both high school (one semester equals one full high school credit if it is a college level class) and for college. Whether the credits you earned through the college count toward your degree at another college is purely up to the final college. I think the terms “dual credit” and “dual enrollment” are pretty much the same. Perhaps other localities handle it differently.
            Around here, many like to use the cc for high school classes they can’t handle themselves. Many will take algebra 2 and “College algebra” which is precalculus minus the trig at cc. The college algebra does count as college credit if that is all the higher math you want. Many here also take intro science class that are high school level and even remedial English classes. It is also very popular here to max out dual enrollment which here is limited to 6 credit hours per semester each semester the student is 16 or older. So many can get in 5 semesters or 30 credit hours. They enroll in math, science, foreign language, history, psychology, English and just about any gen ed they think will transfer. The down side to this is these are “public school” classes with all the public school ideology. Plus our cc’s have become, in a way, glorified high school grades 13 and 14 with a bunch of kids who don’t really want to be there any more than they wanted to be in their public high school. Thus classes are hit and miss whether they are good. You lose out on the ability to offer a classical, Christian education because you are using typical public school focused classes. The benefit is you get up to 30 college credits and can greatly reduce you time and money at the university. For us, we chose to focus on classical, Christian education and only use cc when our kids have simply passed what we can do at home- which for us means any math beyond Calc 1 and any science beyond the main 3.
            In some locations, the state pays for dual enrollment (or dual credit) and kids can enroll full time in the cc their junior and senior year and graduate high school with an associate degree. Not here in Missouri- we have to pay full cost for cc enrollment (currently around $100 per credit hour). We also have a few universities who offer discounted dual enrollment courses for $50-$100 a credit hour, but their selections are more limited than what you can take at cc. At the cc you can take anything you want that you have the prerequisites for.
            Also- our cc will accept a transcript (can be homemade) stating you passed a science class and will allow you to enroll in the college level science class, but for math, unless you have an AP test score, they make you take a placement test to see what math class you can take. My oldest had earned an A in precalculus and wanted to take calc her senior year at the cc. She didn’t pass the precalc placement test because she forgot one specific trig identity and it wouldn’t let her go past that. So they made her retake precalc. She chose not to and did an advanced topics in math/very intro calc course at home and then at her university they used SAT score to place math and she was allowed to take calculus. So sometimes what the cc will let you take may not be based on what you have already passed in high school but rather where you place in their placement test. They use a placement test for English too and any foreign language if you want to start beyond the first semester level of that language.
            This is good to know that people have different experiences at different schools. We checked both the small liberal arts school that our daughter attends, and the list of classes that will transfer to U of Illinois, and found that the high school level classes would not transfer. So it’s a good thing to check in each person’s case.

            AMDG,
            Sarah
            2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
            DD, 19, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
            DS, 16
            DD, 14
            DD, 12
            DD, 10
            DD, 8
            DD, 6
            +DS+
            DS, 2

            Comment


              #36
              I’m sorry if i was unclear. I’m not familiar with the “intro” or high school level classes ever being accepted for college credit when transferring. What I meant was many here use the cc to teach classes they don’t feel they can teach at home. For instance, some use cc for high school chemistry to get the lab experience and a teacher who knows the subject even though the credit won’t transfer to college, it does count for high school credit- much like taking an MPOA class but with an actual lab. Cost is about the same as online classes.
              Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
              DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
              DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
              DS, 21, chemistry major
              DS, 18, Physics major
              DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
              DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
              DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post

                Hi Nicole,
                I teach Introductory Physics to 9th graders at HLS Indianapolis and all my students are taking algebra1 concurrently. 9th grade students who are taking algebra2 are permitted to take biology, but it is a big jump from 8th grade physical science. Taking Introductory Physics first really helps the students prepare for advanced science in 10th-12th grades.
                Cindy in Indy ---- just out of curiosity, how many days per week does your Intro to Physics class meet?
                Plans for 2019-20

                DD1 - 24 - College Grad and rocking her own bakery business
                DD2 - 13 - 8A Louisville HLS Cottage School and MPOA
                DS3 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DS4 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DD5 - 7 - MP2, Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DS6 - 5 - MP K

                [url]www.thekennedyadventures.com/all-about-our-memoria-press-homeschool[/url]

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Melisa Burke View Post

                  I'm bumping this up in case Cindy didn't see my question. Thanks.
                  Hi Melisa,
                  Thanks for bumping this - I had missed your question!

                  Given the specific situation you describe, I would suggest
                  8th - Physical Science with COTR pre-algebra
                  [9th - Earth Science (if needed) with algebra1]
                  9th - Introductory Physics with algebra1
                  10th - biology with algebra2
                  11th - chemistry with geometry
                  12th - anatomy and physiology with statistics or precalculus

                  I recommend you see how 8th grade goes. Have him practice steadily with his prealgebra and science lessons. You may be surprised at how he progresses as a student. I would consider inserting Earth Science into 9th grade (shown in teal above) *if* you decide he needs additional time to complete the prealgebra and algebra sequence. Earth Science *may* be offered for high school credit if laboratory experiments are included, but it is not as strong as the recommended progression (in black above). Physical Science has a lot of overlap with Introductory Physics, and it is not recommended for high school science credit. I might consider PhysSci as high school credit for a student needing significant accommodations (and likely not college-bound).
                  Cindy Davis
                  Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                  ds-25 college graduate: independent young adult
                  ds-24 college graduate: 2nd year med school
                  dd-22 college senior: Nursing

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by DiannaKennedy View Post

                    Cindy in Indy ---- just out of curiosity, how many days per week does your Intro to Physics class meet?
                    Hi Dianna,
                    We meet twice weekly for 90 minute classes - yielding a total of 3 hours per week.
                    Cindy Davis
                    Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                    ds-25 college graduate: independent young adult
                    ds-24 college graduate: 2nd year med school
                    dd-22 college senior: Nursing

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Cindy,

                      Thank you for your help understanding this sequence. I was placing Physical Science in 9th because MPOA lists it as a 7-9th grade class and indicates that a 7th grader should be a strong student before considering the class. This led me to believe that it was rigorous enough for high school. Your clarification helps, although I am still confused over the MPOA listing.
                      Melisa

                      Homeschooling mom for 10 years

                      dd - 9th grade using MP and Homeschool Connections
                      ds - 7th grade using MP

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Melisa Burke View Post
                        Cindy,

                        Thank you for your help understanding this sequence. I was placing Physical Science in 9th because MPOA lists it as a 7-9th grade class and indicates that a 7th grader should be a strong student before considering the class. This led me to believe that it was rigorous enough for high school. Your clarification helps, although I am still confused over the MPOA listing.
                        Melisa, that's the same mistake I've (almost) made re: Physical Science, reading how the MPOA page described it. I got uneasy when I realized the description doesn't mention any high school credits, while other classes that one could take as a 7th grader (e.g. Classical Studies I) do mention high school credits earned. Reading all I could find in the forum about Physical Science I discovered several threads that made me understand, from what was said by Cindy and our nice posse of MP moms who know a lot about science, that Physical Science should not be considered high school science (at least in average circumstances), and that Introductory Physics should not be considered a complete high school course, so much so that Novare has a different book that covers more advanced physics. still for high school.
                        So this forum (and Cindy, and those mothers) saved me from making the mistake of planning for Physical Science in 9th and Introductory Physics in 11th or even 12th. Now my kids will take IP next year (when we will be done with Algebra I), then Biology, then Chemistry; my son will use 12th grade for another physics course, and my daughter will likely do anatomy.
                        I understand that when MPOA tried to do Intro Physics with students who were taking Algebra I at the same time things didn't go well, which is why the Intro Physics page has that warning. Still, you know your children, and you know what they can do.
                        I can't say how grateful I am to all those in this forum who contribute their wisdom, knowledge, and experience!

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Mrs Bee View Post

                          Melisa, that's the same mistake I've (almost) made re: Physical Science, reading how the MPOA page described it. I got uneasy when I realized the description doesn't mention any high school credits, while other classes that one could take as a 7th grader (e.g. Classical Studies I) do mention high school credits earned. Reading all I could find in the forum about Physical Science I discovered several threads that made me understand, from what was said by Cindy and our nice posse of MP moms who know a lot about science, that Physical Science should not be considered high school science (at least in average circumstances), and that Introductory Physics should not be considered a complete high school course, so much so that Novare has a different book that covers more advanced physics. still for high school.
                          So this forum (and Cindy, and those mothers) saved me from making the mistake of planning for Physical Science in 9th and Introductory Physics in 11th or even 12th. Now my kids will take IP next year (when we will be done with Algebra I), then Biology, then Chemistry; my son will use 12th grade for another physics course, and my daughter will likely do anatomy.
                          I understand that when MPOA tried to do Intro Physics with students who were taking Algebra I at the same time things didn't go well, which is why the Intro Physics page has that warning. Still, you know your children, and you know what they can do.
                          I can't say how grateful I am to all those in this forum who contribute their wisdom, knowledge, and experience!
                          Hi Mrs. Bee,
                          I would like to clarify that I consider Introductory Physics to be a complete high school course. It is suitable for high school credit and prepares students well for the rigors of biology and chemistry. Students planning to pursue a STEM field (engineering, physical or life science, pre-med, or mathematics) should plan to take advanced physics (trig-based) in 12th grade, but business majors, design majors, nursing majors would be fine to substitute anatomy and physiology for advanced physics in 12th. That's how I advise the students I work with.
                          Cindy Davis
                          Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                          ds-25 college graduate: independent young adult
                          ds-24 college graduate: 2nd year med school
                          dd-22 college senior: Nursing

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
                            Hi Mrs. Bee,
                            I would like to clarify that I consider Introductory Physics to be a complete high school course. It is suitable for high school credit and prepares students well for the rigors of biology and chemistry. Students planning to pursue a STEM field (engineering, physical or life science, pre-med, or mathematics) should plan to take advanced physics (trig-based) in 12th grade, but business majors, design majors, nursing majors would be fine to substitute anatomy and physiology for advanced physics in 12th. That's how I advise the students I work with.
                            Thank you for your precision, Cindy. I have seen you made this point before, and I'm glad you're repeating it for everyone's benefit: that's what I meant when I said that IP was incomplete, but you are right that it's more accurate to say that some students will need more physics than IP. My son for now strongly leans towards engineering/architecture, hence my expectation that 12th grade will very likely be another physics class for him. My daughter, on the other hand, will never need any more physics than Introductory Physics: that will be more than enough for her

                            Comment

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