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    Novare vs Dive science

    I am planning on Physical Science for my 8th grader next year, but I thought maybe more people on the high school board could help with this. Can anyone compare Dive Science with Novare science? I have read a lot of good things about Novare, but I am intimidated by the thought of teaching high school science - it was never a strong subject for me - and I thought about using the Dive DVDs instead. (There are youngers coming up behind him so dvds seem like a good investment, as opposed to streaming through MP.) We have no problem with Dr. Shormann's religious take on science, but its not clear to me how the material matches up academically. Has anybody used both? This is for a strong science student.

    #2
    I will start by saying that I am teaching Novare Physical Science right now and that I do not know anything about DIVE Science.

    Because of issues with fatigue/energy, I sit with my dd and read through the lessons with her tag-team style (she reads a paragraph, I read a paragraph...) and we discuss as we read. The Novare earth and science texts are written so that even a trepidacious parent can read along with a student and keep right up. I would imagine that a strong student could also learn independently using the program; however, I cannot speak to this personally because I haven't used his texts that way (yet!). Novare is mastery-based and quizzes/tests will contain material covered in earlier chapters. Much like what Rod & Staff does for math, kids who take Novare science know the concepts they've learned. Of course, we have only used earth and physical science here, but the results I've seen have been well worth the effort I've put in to teaching. BTW, I have no affiliation with Novare; just a very happy parent user. :-)

    If you want to teach/learn with your student, Novare has just come out with the first in a series of books called "Science for Every Teacher". The physics book is available and earth science, chemistry and biology are promised in the near future. You can see it here: https://www.novarescienceandmath.com/product/science-for-every-teacher-softcover/
    You don't need this book to teach physics or physical science; however, it could prove helpful if you wish to teach and want to know a bit more than what's printed in the text. They also have a more general book outlining how to teach science using a mastery approach :
    https://www.novarescienceandmath.com...ching-science/. Of course, if you simply do not have time to teach this or if you are not sure your student is ready to take the lead in his/her science study, then just ignore all of this.

    I did peek over at the DIVE website and it looks rigorous; however, again, I have never used it. I do like that students can ask Dr. Shorrmann if they have questions and they'll be answered within one business day. Would you be available to assist with experiments if your son needs assistance? Or would you skip the optional lab/experiment add-on?
    Mary

    DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek
    DS12 - 7th core
    DD8 - Still finishing 1st core at her own happy pace :-)

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you for your answer Mary. It was kind of a long shot that anyone here would have used both, so I'm not surprised by the lack of response. Can I ask you a question about Physical science? If you don't have time to answer I will start a new thread later, but I was just wondering.

      You said that Novare continually reviews concepts, but what kind of concepts? I know the book includes a certain amount of history about scientific discoveries, but my son already knows most of this and I'm afraid he will be bored by it. Is the historical info being reviewed?

      Also, is there a lot of Math in this book? We are working through pre-algebra together, but I think we're switching to DVD based instruction after this. I would actually really like a science program that incorporates math as much as possible, as I know it will prepare him better, but I'm afraid I won't be able to teach it.

      And what is your long term plan? Will you teach chemistry and biology the same way? You probably can't answer that one, nor can I But part of what keeps me looking at the Dive program is knowing I have a clear path to the end.

      We did try a book from BJU a couple years ago and it was so overwhelming - so much random information packed into a tight space. So the mastery focus of Novare really appeals to me. But I've also flopped many times when it comes to organizing experiments and such. (I would probably not do the experiments in physical science. Just looking ahead at high school.) And I am afraid of failing him due to my lack of experience and organization.

      We've chopped and changed curriculum a lot and he likes to stick with things and not change. That's part of why I'm dithering about future courses. If we need to change, we will, but it would be ideal to find a plan and stay the course.

      Comment


        #4
        I have used both, but not for Physical Science. I intended for my daughter to use Novare Accelerated Chemistry, however, it was not getting done well in a timely manner. I ended up switching to DIVE, and we were very happy with it.

        Comment


          #5
          sunset - I read your post and will get back to you tonight. Your questions are good ones and I will have time to answer once I have lessons/dinner/daily life finished this evening. *weary laugh*

          klwalukas - I'm glad to hear you were happy with DIVE. I can easily see how one could get derailed with meatier subjects in the higher grades. Can you tell us a bit more about DIVE while waiting for me to come back and give a full account (so far) of our experience with Novare earth/physical science? I think in HS, especially, it is really good to know about available options.
          Last edited by Mary; 06-20-2019, 10:19 AM. Reason: Typing on phone - all thumbs (literally and figuratively).
          Mary

          DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek
          DS12 - 7th core
          DD8 - Still finishing 1st core at her own happy pace :-)

          Comment


            #6
            I should note that this was before MP had Novare resources, so I'm sure it is easier to follow through with now. We used Novare Earth Science for 8th grade, which I liked, but didn't do much more with it except reading, watch the linked videos, define terms, and some of the labs. For Chemistry, I made a schedule for my daughter but I didn't follow through well enough to make sure it was getting done. I have realized that she learns best from reading and lecture, and Novare only provided her the reading. She had Chemistry Lab class with a local co-op that was following Apologia Chemistry, so the labs didn't line up. In November, of that year, I scrapped the Novare plan and switched to DIVE Chemistry. She was willing and able to do that completely independently, liked the video lessons and the virtual labs (although she was still doing the hands-on labs in co-op), and I could log on and see her progress. She only occasionally needed my help and she really liked it. It did not prepare her for the CLEP, AP, or SAT 2 Subject test without additional work. The CLEP Professor Course that DIVE sells is very different from DIVE and covers material in much larger chunks, and she didn't like that format. We ended up using ALEKS AP Chemistry to cover Advanced Chemistry topics. All in all, with all my missteps along the way, she earned 2 credits of Chemistry, which I called "Honors Chemistry with Lab" and "Advanced Chemistry." We are continuing next year with DIVE for Physics, although we are using Thinkwell for AP Biology right now since I wanted better coverage of Evolutionary Theory.
            Hope that helps,
            Kristin

            Comment


              #7
              I’ve been trying to figure out exactly what Dive science is. I’m familiar with Dive cds that teach saxon math. I found a site that has Dive self paced for science and it seems to be all digital (which is NOT good for my dyslexic. She needs a paper text along with lectures and not a digital text). It said a paper text can be purchased but it looks like they just link to Apologia??? So is Dive science to Apologia what Dive math is to Saxon? Is it just a digital self paced enhanced version of Apologia?
              Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
              DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
              DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
              DS, 21, chemistry major
              DS, 18, Physics major
              DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
              DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
              DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

              Comment


                #8
                Accelerated Chemistry is supposed to be quite difficult without an experienced teacher, isn't it? I expect that would take a lot of dedication to pull off. I'm glad to hear you were satisfied with Dive, Klwalukas. Thanks for sharing about your experience with it. Did you order the experiment kit that goes with it?

                Momgineer, the website seems to be focused on selling the self-paced program, but I had read previously that it had been a CD, and dug around on the website until I found it. (Rainbow Reesource has it also). It can be purchased as a CD, a digital download, and also as a streaming online class. What I am interested in, at least for now, is the CDs, and I would do the grading and such. He provides a syllabus for a few different texts, depending on which subject he is covering. I read, (on the wtm forum I think) that it would not work well with Novare because the topics covered are so different.I think it was designed to fit with BJU texts, but he has a syllabus with suggested readings from Apologia as well as some secular textbooks. As I understand it, the reading is meant to be the first pass through the subject, while the lecture solidifies and expands on the material, similar to what you would expect in a classroom.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by sunset View Post
                  Thank you for your answer Mary. It was kind of a long shot that anyone here would have used both, so I'm not surprised by the lack of response. Can I ask you a question about Physical science? If you don't have time to answer I will start a new thread later, but I was just wondering.

                  You said that Novare continually reviews concepts, but what kind of concepts? I know the book includes a certain amount of history about scientific discoveries, but my son already knows most of this and I'm afraid he will be bored by it. Is the historical info being reviewed?

                  Also, is there a lot of Math in this book? We are working through pre-algebra together, but I think we're switching to DVD based instruction after this. I would actually really like a science program that incorporates math as much as possible, as I know it will prepare him better, but I'm afraid I won't be able to teach it.

                  And what is your long term plan? Will you teach chemistry and biology the same way? You probably can't answer that one, nor can I But part of what keeps me looking at the Dive program is knowing I have a clear path to the end.

                  We did try a book from BJU a couple years ago and it was so overwhelming - so much random information packed into a tight space. So the mastery focus of Novare really appeals to me. But I've also flopped many times when it comes to organizing experiments and such. (I would probably not do the experiments in physical science. Just looking ahead at high school.) And I am afraid of failing him due to my lack of experience and organization.

                  We've chopped and changed curriculum a lot and he likes to stick with things and not change. That's part of why I'm dithering about future courses. If we need to change, we will, but it would be ideal to find a plan and stay the course.
                  Hi sunset,
                  While you are waiting for Mary's answer, I thought I would chime in with some answers about the review and the math in Novare Physical Science. The review includes the content covered in previous quizzes and chapters. For example, when you are learning about pressure, volume and temperature, you might have a review of the 3 subatomic particles (proton, neutron, electron - for which the student would be expected to know the relative size, charge, and location). Later, when you are working through unit conversions, he might be asked to describe the 3 modes of heat transfer: conduction, convection, and radiation, noting which situations they apply and generally how they work. That kind of regular review occurs throughout the course, so that at the end (and in subsequent years), your student will be able to rattle off the law of conservation of energy (for example) at any time. The review is not focused on historical figures, although there might be an occasional question about Newton or Einstein.

                  The author intentionally brings math in about halfway through the book, to give a typical prealgebra student a chance to be up to speed. Unit conversions are correctly taught, which is a great help when the student begins chemistry. Math is used to calculate velocity and acceleration, using basic kinematics equations. It is also used to calculate density (or mass or volume, depending on what is given). The student is not required to use algebra to manipulate the equations, since not all students taking Physical Science would have studied algebra. In contrast, in the Introductory Physics (9th grade course), algebra is used to solve equations for a variable, and then the value is computed using arithmetic. It is expected that students will use a calculator for the computations in Physical Science and higher science courses.

                  I will leave your other questions for Mary.
                  Cindy Davis
                  Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                  ds-25 college graduate: autodidact, working to pay the bills
                  ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
                  dd-21 college senior: Nursing

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thank you Cindy. That was very helpful.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      God bless you, Cindy! As it usually happens, life got in the way of my best laid plans. Let me reassure you that it did not take 3 days to get my kids' dinner and bedtime routine finished. *weary laugh*

                      Cindy pretty much covered it - Mr. Mays does build in review of concepts and math (math especially in the second semester). There is review throughout the year of the major contributors to atomic theory (Bohrs, Rutherford, et al.) and students are expected to know what each scientist contributed; however, the main focus is on methods, concepts and calculations. In the second semester, each review sheet and quiz will incorporate at least one problem requiring calculations, as Cindy described. A student taking prealgebra should have little difficulty in completing these. Additionally, he provides conversion charts to aid students (miles to kilometers and so forth). Lastly, one thing I really appreciate about Novare is the expectation that students provide answers in complete sentences. There is no room to merely "bluff" through an answer. Kids who write out - and study - their vocabulary cards, write out their learning check and chapter questions and who complete their weekly review sheets really know the concepts they're being tested on. (Aaaand my resident 9th grade grammarian will be so upset I ended that sentence with a preposition!)

                      Insofar as lecture goes, I do not lecture the kids in ES or PS, per se. Rather, we sit and round-robin read each lesson, with each of us taking a paragraph or page. This way, I can engage in discussion and/or answer any questions as they come up. We do use a whiteboard so that I can replicate diagrams from the book (or draw some of my own) but I'm not standing and lecturing the way a traditional bricks-and-mortar school teacher might do. I also have them complete most of the experiments. They have to fill out their own lab report notebooks but I am on hand to guide the experiment (as needed - some require more Mom Involvement than others) - mainly to be sure they don't blow anything up. *more weary laughter*

                      For both ES and PS, I did order the experiment sets from Home Science Tools; however, I will say that the PS set is pretty expensive. HST does allow for customization, so I was able to save some money by deleting items we already have or that I can easily substitute. I already have a gram scale, I don't need a hot plate and, quite frankly, I have enough Hot Wheels ramps and cars that I was able to finagle a ramp on my own. That was a huge savings!

                      My advice if you decide to teach at home and want to be involved but you're not a science/engineering whiz:
                      *If you do not have experience (or, like me, can't remember!) writing out lab reports, buy the lab report handbook. It is so good.
                      *If you can't do all of the experiments, go through and pick the ones you are comfortable conducting and do them.
                      I like Novare's experiments because they are well thought out and they go right along with what the student is learning. Aside from the ones requiring a flame or caustic
                      chemicals, they are largely set up for a student to do most of the work.


                      Now, if any of my kids gets to the AP level, I'm likely going to come knocking at the MPOA's door. I am comfortable teaching intro physics and chemistry because I know I can read ahead and dust off what I learned in high school/college and because Novare provides some nice teacher helps. (I am peeking through the first in their new series of "Science for Every Teacher" books and I really like it - worth every penny I spent out of my *dwindling* mad money fund!) It takes a bit of time, as does teaching literature and history and logic...but I feel it's worth it because this is a mastery approach and my kids aren't forgetting what they've learned. Because I've watched that same type of mastery stay with them from recitation in the earlier grades, I am confident that their science knowledge will stay with them, as well.

                      The caveat is that I am speaking from the comfortable position of *only* having three children. This may just not be a reality for larger families or families in which a parent has to work, has teensy little ones to care for, and so on. Take what I say with a grain of salt.
                      Last edited by Mary; 06-22-2019, 12:23 PM.
                      Mary

                      DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek
                      DS12 - 7th core
                      DD8 - Still finishing 1st core at her own happy pace :-)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mary View Post
                        God bless you, Cindy! As it usually happens, life got in the way of my best laid plans. Let me reassure you that it did not take 3 days to get my kids' dinner and bedtime routine finished. *weary laugh*

                        Cindy pretty much covered it - Mr. Mays does build in review of concepts and math (math especially in the second semester). There is review throughout the year of the major contributors to atomic theory (Bohrs, Rutherford, et al.) and students are expected to know what each scientist contributed; however, the main focus is on methods, concepts and calculations. In the second semester, each review sheet and quiz will incorporate at least one problem requiring calculations, as Cindy described. A student taking prealgebra should have little difficulty in completing these. Additionally, he provides conversion charts to aid students (miles to kilometers and so forth). Lastly, one thing I really appreciate about Novare is the expectation that students provide answers in complete sentences. There is no room to merely "bluff" through an answer. Kids who write out - and study - their vocabulary cards, write out their learning check and chapter questions and who complete their weekly review sheets really know the concepts they're being tested on. (Aaaand my resident 9th grade grammarian will be so upset I ended that sentence with a preposition!)

                        Insofar as lecture goes, I do not lecture the kids in ES or PS, per se. Rather, we sit and round-robin read each lesson, with each of us taking a paragraph or page. This way, I can engage in discussion and/or answer any questions as they come up. We do use a whiteboard so that I can replicate diagrams from the book (or draw some of my own) but I'm not standing and lecturing the way a traditional bricks-and-mortar school teacher might do. I also have them complete most of the experiments. They have to fill out their own lab report notebooks but I am on hand to guide the experiment (as needed - some require more Mom Involvement than others) - mainly to be sure they don't blow anything up. *more weary laughter*

                        For both ES and PS, I did order the experiment sets from Home Science Tools; however, I will say that the PS set is pretty expensive.



                        Now, if any of my kids gets to the AP level, I'm likely going to come knocking at the MPOA's door. I am comfortable teaching intro physics and chemistry because I know I can read ahead and dust off what I learned in high school/college and because Novare provides some nice teacher helps. (I am peeking through the first in their new series of "Science for Every Teacher" books and I really like it - worth every penny I spent out of my *dwindling* mad money fund!) It takes a bit of time, as does teaching literature and history and logic...but I feel it's worth it because this is a mastery approach and my kids aren't forgetting what they've learned. Because I've watched that same type of mastery stay with them from recitation in the earlier grades, I am confident that their science knowledge will stay with them, as well.

                        The caveat is that I am speaking from the comfortable position of *only* having three children. This may just not be a reality for larger families or families in which a parent has to work, has teensy little ones to care for, and so on. Take what I say with a grain of salt.
                        Mary,

                        I like the idea of reading the chapter together. I think I tend to send my kids off to do that part themselves more than I should. Maybe my lack of a schedule to cover it with them is why it often doesn’t get covered completely by the end of the year. *Weary laugh* as you said at the beginning ;-). Note to self: don’t just plan the courses to cover, but an actual daily schedule FOR ME.

                        I would find another door besides MPOA to knock on for AP level math and science. The last time I spoke with Scott those classes weren’t on their radar. I am thinking of using Thinkwell for chemistry the next time it is on sale for my daughter as prep for a community college class. I really have no desire to turn my kitchen into a chemistry lab.
                        Dorinda

                        For 2019-2020
                        DD 16 - 11th with MPOA(AP Latin), Lukeion (Greek4 & Adv. NT Greek), Thinkwell (Economics and Chemistry), plus Pre-Calculus, American G’ment, Early Church History set, and British Lit
                        DS 14 - 8th with MPOA(Fourth Form), CLRC(Intro Lit and Comp), plus Algebra, Field Biology, Classical Studies 1
                        DS 11 - 6th with Right Start Level G online class
                        DS 6 - 1st with Prima Latina

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post

                          Mary,

                          I like the idea of reading the chapter together. I think I tend to send my kids off to do that part themselves more than I should. Maybe my lack of a schedule to cover it with them is why it often doesn’t get covered completely by the end of the year. *Weary laugh* as you said at the beginning ;-). Note to self: don’t just plan the courses to cover, but an actual daily schedule FOR ME.

                          I would find another door besides MPOA to knock on for AP level math and science. The last time I spoke with Scott those classes weren’t on their radar. I am thinking of using Thinkwell for chemistry the next time it is on sale for my daughter as prep for a community college class. I really have no desire to turn my kitchen into a chemistry lab.

                          Dorinda! This is good to know. I just *assumed* MPOA would have AP level math/science (and that's what I get for assuming). My dd14 is not tracking to be AP science right now but who knows? That may change. My ds12 is the one who will likely be doing more AP math/science work, just based on current aptitude and interest. Good for me to be thinking about how we'll handle this in the coming years.

                          As for working together, I enjoy it but it does really take a lot of time when you pile on literature, logic, math, science and history x 2 kids...and then a 1st grader who needs phonics and cursive and reading. It is totally worth it and I'm glad to do it for this short season...but my life revolves around a pretty tight school schedule. And I only have 3 kids.

                          I just don't want anyone to get the idea that I flit through my days, first dancing with my mop tidying my spotless kitchen and then settling comfortably on the couch, surrounded by children eagerly clamoring for mom to impart more knowledge...then traipsing off to my home chemistry lab to make flubber with the kids before Daddy arrives home to his pipe and slippers. *cracks up into uncontrollable guffaws* Several years ago, after I posted the schedule I had with my then 5th, 3rd and preschooler children, a kind soul thought I was living some picture perfect life. I wasn't. I am trying to be more careful now.
                          Last edited by Mary; 06-22-2019, 12:36 PM.
                          Mary

                          DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek
                          DS12 - 7th core
                          DD8 - Still finishing 1st core at her own happy pace :-)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Thank you for your reply Mary. After looking closer at the samples of Novare, I'm really impressed by all the study helps built into the text - and the book seems to do an excellent job of expanding on concepts in the same way Dive uses the video lectures to expand on them. Since my son much prefers reading to watching, Novare is starting to look more and more doable. I haven't officially decided yet, but this has been helpful. Thank you.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              sunset - I thought of you today! DD had to take a quiz for physical science and smacked her head over a question she'd inadvertently only partly answered. On today's quiz, students were asked in one question to outline one scientist's ideas about atoms and, in another question, were asked to describe why another scientist's ideas were important in forming modern atomic theory. She merely listed each person's hypotheses; however, the second question required her to go a step further and state how that hypothesis is still being used.

                              One thing I really like about Novare science is the preciseness of the program. For example, Mr. Mays is careful to explain that science is not infallible and that some of what is presented as "fact" is really inferred knowledge - and subject to change once (if) advances are made that help us to understand certain ideas and processes better. His language is also precise. "Discovery" and "idea" are not interchangeable, just as some scientific "facts" are not facts at all. (For example, I read in a different science text that atoms were discovered by Democritus. Except that he didn't discover anything - even now, nobody has actually seen an atom. Democritus came up with the idea that all matter is made up of indivisible particles.) Lastly, he expects students to read carefully for content and to answer the questions put before them - much as my daughter learned this morning.

                              We talk all the time in literature and writing and logic and Latin about how words have meaning. I like so much that this carries over into the kids' science studies - words have meaning in all facets of life. It makes me cringe when I hear people on TV or see writers use words grossly incorrectly or out of context...or sometimes just make up new meanings. ("Hack" is something a cat does when it has a furball in its throat. A helpful tip is what I need to stop my faucet from leaking. But I digress...) I'm glad to know that there are still people who care about using words correctly. *insert puffy cartoon hearts floating around my head -here-*

                              I get nothing for saying this and I am not affiliated with Novare. The more I delve into their texts, the more I just adore the company and the more grateful I am that MP has chosen to incorporate Novare science into the cores. Perhaps I'm just giddy that I am learning as I teach my kids and I can feel myself becoming more truly educated at the ripe old age of...the 16th anniversary of my 29th birthday. *dissolves into fits of giggles*
                              Mary

                              DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek
                              DS12 - 7th core
                              DD8 - Still finishing 1st core at her own happy pace :-)

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