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    Latin Sequence after 4th Form

    My daughter is finishing 4FL this year as a 7th grader. While we have absolutely loved the Forms, this year has been much more challenging. She has memorized all of the grammar forms and is pretty good with the vocabulary, but definitely struggling to comprehend the grammar. The translations, especially from Henle or any English-Latin, have been akin to torture for her and she has gone from enjoying Latin and feeling "good at it" to dreading it and feeling like she doesn't understand anything anymore.
    I have no idea what to do for 8th grade. She dislikes Henle so much that I can't bring myself to buy Henle II for her, and this year has been such a struggle that I don't have the heart to have her re-do 4FL. She needs something that will be more enjoyable (she has several years before she needs to do AP, so I feel like we have some extra time). She definitely needs to build stamina for translating lengthier pieces, but I want her to do it within the context of something that she'd enjoy and feel successful with.
    Lingua Biblica looks interesting, but doesn't seem like quite enough. Is there another recommendation to insert between 4FL and Caesar/ AP Latin other than Henle?
    2018/2019
    Dd 12: MP 7A and First Form Greek
    Ds 10: MP 5M
    Ds 5: MP K

    #2
    Originally posted by Angela View Post
    My daughter is finishing 4FL this year as a 7th grader. While we have absolutely loved the Forms, this year has been much more challenging. She has memorized all of the grammar forms and is pretty good with the vocabulary, but definitely struggling to comprehend the grammar. The translations, especially from Henle or any English-Latin, have been akin to torture for her and she has gone from enjoying Latin and feeling "good at it" to dreading it and feeling like she doesn't understand anything anymore.
    I have no idea what to do for 8th grade. She dislikes Henle so much that I can't bring myself to buy Henle II for her, and this year has been such a struggle that I don't have the heart to have her re-do 4FL. She needs something that will be more enjoyable (she has several years before she needs to do AP, so I feel like we have some extra time). She definitely needs to build stamina for translating lengthier pieces, but I want her to do it within the context of something that she'd enjoy and feel successful with.
    Lingua Biblica looks interesting, but doesn't seem like quite enough. Is there another recommendation to insert between 4FL and Caesar/ AP Latin other than Henle?
    Good afternoon Angela,

    I'm sorry to hear Latin has become such a struggle and so discouraging for your daughter. I hope she realizes that she has accomplished so much already in the first three Forms. She should be rightly proud of what she's done, and be encouraged by the knowledge that she's conquered many previous challenges and can be confident she will (eventually!) conquer this one too. Translating, which becomes the focus of Fourth Form, is a new skill, and so even though your daughter is quite experienced with Latin grammar, she is a still a novice when it comes to translating longer and more complicated passages. Remind her how hard it once was to conjugate a verb or to make an adjective agree with its noun. Looking back, it now seems easy to do those things, and the same will be true of translation.

    With the above in mind, here are a couple ideas for how to proceed.

    1) Go back through Fourth Form and Henle I (Hear me out, please!), re-translating sentences in the workbook and tackling some of the extra practice that is included in most lessons. Only assign a few translations a day, and have her take her time with them, parsing each word, checking her translation against the key, and working to understand why the correct answer is correct. To build confidence, you may want to first go back to Henle's earliest units, where the sentences are short and simple. Lingua Biblica would work well as a supplement to break up the Fourth Form/Henle review.

    2) If Henle is completely off the table, you could still follow the above plan and only redo the original, non-Henle sentences in 4FL while still supplementing with Lingua Biblica.

    Would either of these plans work? If not, or if you have further questions, please let me know!
    Michael
    Memoria Press

    Comment


      #3
      Michael,
      Thanks for your reply. I shared your answer with my daughter and we are considering it. If she did do another year of 4FL, possibly without Henle, would that be sufficient for her to move into Caesar the next year without doing Henle II first?
      2018/2019
      Dd 12: MP 7A and First Form Greek
      Ds 10: MP 5M
      Ds 5: MP K

      Comment


        #4
        I would suggest having some fun with Latin by using the "Lingua Latina: Familia Romana" book, while you go back through 1-2 days per week and work through 4th Form. My kids have used the Form series 60%-70% of our Latin study and Lingua Latina the other 30%-40% of the time. Even though we go a little slower through the Form series, my kids are adding vocabulary through context by using Familia Romana, but more importantly, the most common words are used over and over. And this has added to their ability to translate passages more quickly. They've really enjoyed Latin study because they have the opportunity to read Latin in story form.

        Comment


          #5
          This is an idea that I have been pondering as well. My oldest two have not needed a lot of motivation to continue with Latin. They just seemed to either enjoy it, or to "get" why it was so good for them. My third is struggling more. She's not quite to where your daughter is, Angela, but she's staring down the end of Henle one with angst already. I have wondered if having a way of reinforcing Latin while continuing the work of it would help.

          AMDG,
          Sarah
          2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
          DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
          DS, 16
          DD, 14
          DD, 12
          DD, 10
          DD, 7.5
          DD, 5.5
          +DS+
          DS, 18 months

          Comment


            #6
            I intend to have my 3FL student read some of the Cambridge Latin books for summer work. I think storyline and pictures will benefit this particular kiddo. Then we'll resume our Forms in the fall.

            Perhaps something like that would be helpful?
            Amanda
            Mama to three crazy boys - 6A, 5A, 1

            "Non nisi te, Domine. Non nisi te" - St. Thomas Aquinas

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Angela View Post
              Michael,
              Thanks for your reply. I shared your answer with my daughter and we are considering it. If she did do another year of 4FL, possibly without Henle, would that be sufficient for her to move into Caesar the next year without doing Henle II first?
              You're very welcome, Angela. At HLS, we use the Henle II year as preparation for Caesar. Henle II's lessons provide grammar and syntax review, introduce some more-advanced syntax, and allow students to master the process and art of translating. Skipping Henle II will not make Mueller impossible, but it will make Mueller more difficult.

              Is your concern that your daughter will "fall behind" by essentially repeating 4FL? If so, be assured that you will not harm her Latin career! She will still have four more years for Latin, years which she will enter more confidently having solidified her foundation.

              HTH!
              Michael
              Memoria Press

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Angela View Post
                My daughter is finishing 4FL this year as a 7th grader. While we have absolutely loved the Forms, this year has been much more challenging. She has memorized all of the grammar forms and is pretty good with the vocabulary, but definitely struggling to comprehend the grammar. The translations, especially from Henle or any English-Latin, have been akin to torture for her and she has gone from enjoying Latin and feeling "good at it" to dreading it and feeling like she doesn't understand anything anymore.
                I have no idea what to do for 8th grade. She dislikes Henle so much that I can't bring myself to buy Henle II for her, and this year has been such a struggle that I don't have the heart to have her re-do 4FL. She needs something that will be more enjoyable (she has several years before she needs to do AP, so I feel like we have some extra time). She definitely needs to build stamina for translating lengthier pieces, but I want her to do it within the context of something that she'd enjoy and feel successful with.
                Lingua Biblica looks interesting, but doesn't seem like quite enough. Is there another recommendation to insert between 4FL and Caesar/ AP Latin other than Henle?
                I'm following this thread with interest, because I could have written this post, Angela

                My seventh grader was always a strong Latin student, but this year, we've hit a wall. Part of it is time management, part of it is age/maturity level/hormones, and part of it is lack of consistent review. She is in exactly the same spot your daughter is ---- used to LOVE Latin, but now, it's the worst class in the world.

                I don't have any advice for you, but just giving you a virtual hug and a solidarity fist bump. We are in a quandary about what to do next year as well. I'm awaiting input from her instructor, but I REALLY think my daughter needs to repeat Fourth Form, to strengthen her skills. It's not something she's going to be happy about, but her summer is so busy, I don't trust us to dig deep and do a formal review to get her ready for Henle II. I think it's a better idea to stay put for now and make sure our foundation is solid.
                Plans for 2019-20

                DD1 - 24 - College Grad and rocking her own bakery business
                DD2 - 13 - 8A Louisville HLS Cottage School and MPOA
                DS3 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DS4 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DD5 - 7 - MP2, Louisville HLS Cottage School
                DS6 - 5 - MP K

                [url]www.thekennedyadventures.com/all-about-our-memoria-press-homeschool[/url]

                Comment


                  #9
                  I will say that my daughter commented that there is review built into the henle 2 class. She said many of the exercises in the henle 2 class (MPOA) were previously covered in fourth form. My son is finishing up 3rd form this year in his first MPOA class. I signed him up for the two day per week section of fourth form because he decided he would benefit from more time with the teacher next year.
                  Dorinda

                  For 2019-2020
                  DD 16 - 11th with MPOA(AP Latin), Lukeion (Greek4 & Adv. NT Greek), Thinkwell (Economics and Chemistry), plus Pre-Calculus, American G’ment, Early Church History set, and British Lit
                  DS 14 - 8th with MPOA(Fourth Form), CLRC(Intro Lit and Comp), plus Algebra, Field Biology, Classical Studies 1
                  DS 11 - 6th with Right Start Level G online class
                  DS 6 - 1st with Prima Latina

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Wow, lots to think about here! I did buy a used copy of Cambridge Latin to look through just for fun, and we are enjoying reading those stories on the side. I think it is similar in approach to Lingua Latina.

                    She was begging to do something other than Henle, but now I think I've persuaded her to stay open to it as an option. I am curious about the amount of review included in Henle 2 (which we would do completely at home, saving our money for online classes to do AP Latin when we get there). I wonder how much thorough mastery of 4FL is required to be successful in Henle 2? Or maybe we should just go through 4FL again (she HATES this idea of repeating it, though!). Or maybe just do Lingua Biblica and re-do certain parts of 4FL, but not the entire thing.

                    Decision making is killing me this time of year!
                    2018/2019
                    Dd 12: MP 7A and First Form Greek
                    Ds 10: MP 5M
                    Ds 5: MP K

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Angela View Post
                      I am curious about the amount of review included in Henle 2. ... I wonder how much thorough mastery of 4FL is required to be successful in Henle 2?
                      Good afternoon Angela,

                      The first sixteen lessons of Henle II do review many concepts taught in Henle I. To quote the author, "The first sixteen lessons ... are designed to meet the needs of classes that did not complete all the units in First Year Latin (many classes are satisfied to have completed seven) or for whom an intensive review of forms and of elementary syntax is necessary" (Second Year Latin, p. v). I do want to emphasize the word "intensive" in that quote. Henle II moves much more quickly through, and includes fewer exercises for, the review topics than did Henle I when it first introduced those concepts.

                      Using Henle's "[first] seven units" as a guide, I would recommend that at least the first two units of Fourth Form Latin be mastered before beginning Henle II. Of course, mastering more of 4FL would be ideal, but in your situation, perhaps two of 4FL's five units would be a good compromise between reviewing all of 4FL and none of 4FL!

                      HTH!
                      Michael
                      Memoria Press

                      Comment


                        #12
                        That’s good news. We had no problems with the first two units. It’s really the grammar of the third unit that has been difficult and I am struggling to understand it myself in order to help. The verbals are very confusing. We have the forms memorized and have no problem with filling out the drill form sheets, but she doesn’t understand the usage of the participals, gerunds, etc.

                        Deponents have been fine and I don’t think there will be any problem with unit 5, so I guess she’ll be okay for Henle 2.

                        It’s mainly a question of getting all this “knowledge” out of her head and into actually being applied with translation. She can get all the answers right in the workbook until translating long sentences, where she’ll sometimes get every word wrong!
                        2018/2019
                        Dd 12: MP 7A and First Form Greek
                        Ds 10: MP 5M
                        Ds 5: MP K

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Angela View Post
                          It’s mainly a question of getting all this “knowledge” out of her head and into actually being applied with translation. She can get all the answers right in the workbook until translating long sentences, where she’ll sometimes get every word wrong!
                          She may be overwhelmed by the length. Try having her take the sentence one word at a time, parsing each word. Even if the extra time required means that fewer sentences are translated, it will be better do few well than many poorly! With time, your daughter's speed and accuracy will increase and she will be able to complete more of each exercise.
                          Michael
                          Memoria Press

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I did not know if I should start a new thread so I jumped on this one. My daughter is finishing 4th Form and 8th grade. Is Henle II the proper course for her? How much is review and is there even another reasonable alternative? How does the high school progression look?

                            Thanks.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hello.

                              Henle 2 using our study guide is your new step. This will assign all the exercises in the second half of the Henle 2 text, preparing your student to translate Caesar. In 10th grade, she will move to the Mueller text and translate the actual lines that are on the AP exam. In 11th grade, she could do Henle 3 and translate Cicero, or if she is a motivated Latin student and feels up to it, she could do AP Vergil and take the AP exam. If she does Henle 3 in 11th, she would do the AP in 12th. (You might consider the online academy for the AP course).

                              This is where everything she has worked so hard on comes together - those years of high school where she is actually translating.

                              Michael might want to add to or change my post later, but I think this is the correct path. I know that Henle 2 is next. But he may prefer a different path after that.

                              Tanya

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