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    11th grade plans have pre-calculus?

    Hello,
    I may have missed this in my search, but will the upcoming 11th grade plans include pre-calculus? Are you pulling together plans for the Larsons text used at HLS?
    Last edited by Mama2Two; 01-31-2019, 04:44 PM.

    #2
    I'm sure someone from MP will chime in, but I don't think so (yet). I have it and like it- we've used some of the review material in the back. I've mostly put together my own resources. The Dana Mosely/ Chaulkdust/ Cool Math Guy videos line up with a different edition. I think it is similar in layout and content, but it is arranged differently. Larsonprecalculus.com has lots of resources. The "Solutions and Study Guide" have tests. We plan to do pretty much everything, either every other odd or 1s & 5s, but I know MP skips most of chapter 7 because it is covered in their Algebra 2. Cindy talks about it in post 19 here:
    Last edited by bean; 02-01-2019, 04:43 AM.
    Bean

    DD- 9M with subs

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      #3
      Hello.

      I don't have anyone to develop precalculus at this time. I wish I did. Ideally, I will find a teacher to tape videos teaching this course, but I haven't nailed that down. I'm feeling like math for our 11th grade package is going to be a recommendation for the online course if you don't feel competent to teach it yourself.

      I'm sorry that upper school courses are taking so much longer to develop. We are limited in the number of people who have the expertise to develop them.

      Tanya

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        #4
        I was the OP for the thread asking for Pre-Calc recommendations. We ended up completing Pre-Calculus using Shormann Math after briefly trying and disliking Forester PreCalc. I was extremely happy with Shormann math and would recommend it to anyone looking for upper level math suggestions until MP is able to provide lesson plans.
        Delectare Literature 6A/7M Discussion Moderator
        DD 15 - MP Logic and various Lit guides
        DD 17 - DE, spending Spring semester volunteering in Ukraine

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          #5
          Thank you for this tip about Shormann math. I have been looking into it and am curious if anyone else has any experience with is. Cindy in Indy, any thoughts? My teen needs Pre-Calc next year and I'm not sure what to do:

          - Local Junior College
          - MPOA (but the class meets 3 x per week and my son will already have several other MPOA classes)
          - Self study (at this point, best options would be Khan and Shormann unless I'm missing something. And Shormann appears superior to Khan for Pre-Calc)

          TIA for any additional thoughts/advice anyone has.

          SusanP in VA

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            #6
            We plan to use MPs book. I found the videos from a community college and the layout works great for self study. I would also recommend Derek Owens. We used it for Prealgebra and an IRL friend likes it for PreCalc (they use Saxon through Algebra 2).
            Bean

            DD- 9M with subs

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              #7
              I have never used Shormann, but did just browse their website so take these as first glance reactions. The price looks attractive and it seems good on the surface for an independent learner, but there are a few comments that make me a bit uncomfortable. They may or not be problematic for you

              1. The statement that it follows the teaching methodology of John Saxon. I can’t stand Saxon math so this is a problem for me and likely influences most of my comments. I found Saxon to never to stay long enough on a topic for it to be learned properly by someone struggling. It isn’t “integrated review” if it was never learned in the first place, it often ends up a muddled mess in the kid’s head. On the other hand for an advanced learner it is frustratingly slow and nearly impossible to speed up because the new material is scattered throughout future problem sets. At least it sounds like he has trimmed down the problem sets as Saxon has a reputation for taking all day.
              2. It is an integrated geometry program- I like a stand alone geometry program and this makes me think the program is going to be switching topics frequently like Saxon math which historically integrated geometry into the upper math books. This might not be an issue with precalculus as much as starting from algebra 1.
              3. The website makes a point about the focus on Christian history of math and mathematicians. This could be an excellent side study, Cindy gave an excellent talk about the order of math at Sodalitas, but I tend to shy away from companies and textbooks that try to force Christianity into every subject. I am in no way saying that they aren’t related and it might not be too pushy, but in a math text I think the focus should be on whether my child is learning math, not checking whether I agree with the author’s theology. The FAQ section says “Shormann Math is built on a biblical foundation and is not Influenced by the “new math” in Common Core.” While I agree that many of the common core standards and texts are contrary to/not supportive of Christianity, my problem with common core *math* standards is that they are just bad math standards, as were most math standards in the years/decades leading up to common core. I don’t remember coming across math pedagogy in my Bible Studies.
              4. I don’t see a listing of topics covered. I didn’t watch the video so it might be in there.

              I did see there are downloadable samples so that is probably your best bet to see if your son likes the format. I think he will either love it or hate it....I doubt there will be much in between. Very few people are neutral on Saxon math or math on the computer. I do think it is good that there are written out solutions available in addition to computer grading of the final answer. That would be a deal breaker for me. I haven’t decided for sure whether my daughter is going to use Derek Owens or the Foerster text. I need to get my hands on them pretty soon to decide. So many choices...so little time to try them all ;-).
              Dorinda

              DD 15 - 10th with MPOA(Biology, Novel, Material Logic/Rhetoric ), Lukeion (Greek3, Latin 3)
              DS 13 - 8A with MPOA(Third Form and composition)
              DS 10 - 5M
              DS 5 - K with AAR3

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                #8
                Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
                I haven’t decided for sure whether my daughter is going to use Derek Owens or the Foerster text. I need to get my hands on them pretty soon to decide. So many choices...so little time to try them all ;-).
                I will just share that our frustration with the Foerster text had to do with that there was a lot that seemed out of order to me, at least to the way I think. For example, there were Matrix problems that my daughter was being taught to "plug and chug," ie. taught to solve with software, many chapters before they were taught how to actually solve a matrix problem and what they were. We are concept first people, and I didn't see the point of knowing how to solve a problem with software before understanding when, where and how to solve those problems without software.

                You are right. Saxon is either a love or hate relationship. My daughter gets math concepts quickly, and it has worked well for her.
                Here is the Shormann PreCalc Teacher's Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...US2m_v-74/edit
                and here is the course description with listing of topics covered: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...iQT5xcoyI/edit

                Kristin
                Delectare Literature 6A/7M Discussion Moderator
                DD 15 - MP Logic and various Lit guides
                DD 17 - DE, spending Spring semester volunteering in Ukraine

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                  #9
                  Thank you, thank you everyone! Love all this feedback. (Dorinda, you know you are my personal curriculum advisor.

                  Kristin, did your daughter do the extended CLEP weeks and take the Pre-Calc CLEP exam?

                  Dorinda, I think the integrated Geometry is in relation to Shormann Alg 1 and 2 (which is very much a Saxon thing, right?)

                  SusanP in VA

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                    #10
                    I did look closely at the Shoremann samples once, and the Bible- integration seemed kind of odd to me. It is very pronounced.
                    Bean

                    DD- 9M with subs

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Tagging on here to the conversation to say that our daughter has used the Lial PreCalculus text and has done really well with it. She has been able to study it on her own, and has done well on her tests. Not sure how else to benchmark it other than to say she scored well on the SAT, also, so we were pleased with it. Might be another option.

                      And I know folks whose kids have had to use Shormann for a small private school, and it has been a disaster. The main complaints I have heard from more than one family stem from the exact issues that Dorinda outlined above.

                      AMDG,
                      Sarah
                      Last edited by KF2000; 03-05-2019, 10:03 PM.
                      2018-2019
                      DD 18 - 12th || DS 15 - 10th || DD 13 - 8th || DD 11 - 6th || DD 9 - 4th
                      DD 7 - 1st || DD 5 - mix of 1st & JrK || +DS, 2-21-16+ || DS 14 months

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by SPearson View Post

                        Kristin, did your daughter do the extended CLEP weeks and take the Pre-Calc CLEP exam?


                        SusanP in VA
                        No, since she completed it in 10th grade and went right on to Calculus, I didn't see the point in trying to earn College credit for it. She will be taking the SAT Math II Subject Test in May since this test is required of homeschoolers by one of the colleges she is interested in, but they don't accept CLEP test scores.

                        The biblical references in Shormann didn't seem overwhelming to us, but I have always taught my kids that our God is a mathematical God of order, not chaos. Dr. Shormann occasionally spends a few minutes talking about how math fits into our lives as Christians or references a bible verse.
                        Delectare Literature 6A/7M Discussion Moderator
                        DD 15 - MP Logic and various Lit guides
                        DD 17 - DE, spending Spring semester volunteering in Ukraine

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Sarah,
                          Thanks for chiming in. Do you mind if I ask you why you chose to do the Lial text intstead of the MP-recommended Ron Larson text? Also, has your daughter been 100% self-study? Has she needed any help and, if so, it could all be found just in the text? Do you have a teacher guide or solution manual?

                          I'm really torn about how to handle this. I don't think we should do the 3x per week online class. I was never a fan of Saxon after spending years in it and, therefore, am a little gun shy of Shormann now. Dorinda recommends Derek Owens, so I've begun to look into his website. Not sure how I missed it for Geometry. Blake is self-studying Geometry this year.

                          TIA,

                          Susan

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by SPearson View Post
                            Sarah,
                            Thanks for chiming in. Do you mind if I ask you why you chose to do the Lial text intstead of the MP-recommended Ron Larson text? Also, has your daughter been 100% self-study? Has she needed any help and, if so, it could all be found just in the text? Do you have a teacher guide or solution manual?
                            We did get both - Larson because MP recommended it, and the Lial book because I have found them to have good explanations in them. Then I had her look at both and choose which one she wanted to do. I knew they were both solid texts, and she was going to have to be studying it herself, so I left it up to her. She chose the Lial text. She has studied it all on her own, and we had the Student Solutions manual for it. She has occasionally hit a snag here or there, but she has always been able to persevere and figure it out. Sometimes we look a topic up online for additional help, but it hasn't been necessary that often. She was at the level of doing PreCalc as a junior, and once she got into it, she realized that in order to learn it well, she was going to have to go more slowly. So she has spent two years to get through it. She is not planning to be anything close to a math/STEM major in college, so I have been happy for her to get this far with math at home. My son is on the same pace, but he is hoping to finish it in a year so that he can do calculus his senior year - which will also be Lial.

                            We found both the Larson text and the Lial texts used for very reasonable prices - which is why I did not hesitate to get both. I always try to have a back-up text no matter which one we are using anyway - that way if one book is confusing about something, they can look in another one to see how it is explained there. Maybe just do the same - get a couple different texts and compare them.

                            AMDG,
                            Sarah
                            Last edited by KF2000; 03-08-2019, 10:59 AM.
                            2018-2019
                            DD 18 - 12th || DS 15 - 10th || DD 13 - 8th || DD 11 - 6th || DD 9 - 4th
                            DD 7 - 1st || DD 5 - mix of 1st & JrK || +DS, 2-21-16+ || DS 14 months

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