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  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
    Typing at the same time as Michael! Hoping it’s still helpful though!


    Tammy,
    Henle is not included in a grade-level Core because the Core curriculum uses the Forms series instead, which allows younger children to start earlier and learn it more slowly.

    Think of the Latin Grammar as a specific chunk of information to be learned. MP offers two paths to learn the whole chunk:

    1). Completing all four levels of the Forma series: First Form, Second Form, Third Form, and Fourth Form. This takes roughly four years (sometimes a bit more). Kids who start in 5th can get it all done by the end of 8th, or the early part of high school, which leaves them time to learn how o actually read things in Latin. Kids who are older can still use this path, and even go a bit faster through First and Second Forms because they can ha sleep it better.

    or

    2). Using Henle Year One to learn the same chunk of material, divided over two years or so. Obviously going so much faster means a student needs to be older to handle it all - which usually means kids are in 7th or higher. This still gives them time to learn the grammar and then spend a couple years translating.

    It’s an either/or thing. MP used the Forms in the Cores, so that is what is included in their lesson plans. But the MP guides for Henle I include lesson plans in the guides themselves, so you still know exactly what to do each day.

    The reason you see Henle I included with Fourth Form is that the level uses the Henle I text for the exercises, instead of having a workbook.

    Does that help clarify things?
    AMDG,
    Sarah
    Yes, this makes sense. Thank you!

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Fourth Form is a different program that uses Henle as a supplement. You will want this set instead. (The accompanying flashcards are optional and thus sold separately.) This set is not one of the pre-programmed options for a curriculum package on the website, but if you call or email your order then one of our representatives can manually add it to your package.

    Have a good evening!
    Perfect! Thank you!

    Leave a comment:


  • KF2000
    replied
    Typing at the same time as Michael! Hoping it’s still helpful though!


    Tammy,
    Henle is not included in a grade-level Core because the Core curriculum uses the Forms series instead, which allows younger children to start earlier and learn it more slowly.

    Think of the Latin Grammar as a specific chunk of information to be learned. MP offers two paths to learn the whole chunk:

    1). Completing all four levels of the Forma series: First Form, Second Form, Third Form, and Fourth Form. This takes roughly four years (sometimes a bit more). Kids who start in 5th can get it all done by the end of 8th, or the early part of high school, which leaves them time to learn how o actually read things in Latin. Kids who are older can still use this path, and even go a bit faster through First and Second Forms because they can ha sleep it better.

    or

    2). Using Henle Year One to learn the same chunk of material, divided over two years or so. Obviously going so much faster means a student needs to be older to handle it all - which usually means kids are in 7th or higher. This still gives them time to learn the grammar and then spend a couple years translating.

    It’s an either/or thing. MP used the Forms in the Cores, so that is what is included in their lesson plans. But the MP guides for Henle I include lesson plans in the guides themselves, so you still know exactly what to do each day.

    The reason you see Henle I included with Fourth Form is that the level uses the Henle I text for the exercises, instead of having a workbook.

    Does that help clarify things?
    AMDG,
    Sarah

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by tehwrd View Post
    I see where First Form 4 with Henle I is available, but I wasn't sure if that was the same or different.
    Fourth Form is a different program that uses Henle as a supplement. You will want this set instead. (The accompanying flashcards are optional and thus sold separately.) This set is not one of the pre-programmed options for a curriculum package on the website, but if you call or email your order then one of our representatives can manually add it to your package.

    Have a good evening!

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    I would recommend Henle over Wheelock's. The latter is a college-level text that introduces content very rapidly, rushes into translation, and embraces a spiral approach to Latin. Henle better organizes concepts, provides a much firmer foundation in grammar forms, and moves at a much more appropriate pace.

    We have teacher manuals, quizzes, and vocabulary flashcards for Henle I so you will have help if you choose to teach Henle at home. If you're open to MPOA, your daughter could begin Henle I now and finish through unit 5 over the summer, then take units 6-14 as a junior and Henle II as a senior. This will complete the bulk of the Latin grammar and allow her to translate some Caesar before graduating high-school. Most importantly, she will have mastered what she has learned and be much better prepared to continue Latin in college or switch to a different foreign language.

    HTH!
    Thank you so much for this! It absolutely does help. Unfortunately MPOA isn't an option financially for us at this time, but I will look into the Henle I material. Is that an available option with one of the curriculum packages? I see where First Form 4 with Henle I is available, but I wasn't sure if that was the same or different. Thank you so much!

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by tehwrd View Post

    Hello.

    She is just starting Wheelock's. She had started with First Form earlier this year, but I realized she wasn't going to get very far going that rote, so I was looking for something that could move her through the beginning things a little faster, maybe? She is taking the course through Homeschool Connections. She got through the first 6 lessons in First Form and has only had the first lesson in Wheelock's. This is way out of my comfort zone, because I didn't take any Latin through any of my schooling. Is starting her in Henle instead of Wheelock's a better option?
    I would recommend Henle over Wheelock's. The latter is a college-level text that introduces content very rapidly, rushes into translation, and embraces a spiral approach to Latin. Henle better organizes concepts, provides a much firmer foundation in grammar forms, and moves at a much more appropriate pace.

    We have teacher manuals, quizzes, and vocabulary flashcards for Henle I so you will have help if you choose to teach Henle at home. If you're open to MPOA, your daughter could begin Henle I now and finish through unit 5 over the summer, then take units 6-14 as a junior and Henle II as a senior. This will complete the bulk of the Latin grammar and allow her to translate some Caesar before graduating high-school. Most importantly, she will have mastered what she has learned and be much better prepared to continue Latin in college or switch to a different foreign language.

    HTH!

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Tammy,

    How far through Wheelock's has your daughter gotten? Do you feel she has mastered what she has studied? It's possible that your daughter could start partway through Henle I, or it could be that she needs to review from the beginning of Henle I. We'd be happy to help you figure out which path is best.
    Hello.

    She is just starting Wheelock's. She had started with First Form earlier this year, but I realized she wasn't going to get very far going that rote, so I was looking for something that could move her through the beginning things a little faster, maybe? She is taking the course through Homeschool Connections. She got through the first 6 lessons in First Form and has only had the first lesson in Wheelock's. This is way out of my comfort zone, because I didn't take any Latin through any of my schooling. Is starting her in Henle instead of Wheelock's a better option?

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by tehwrd View Post
    She is going through Beginning Latin now with Wheelock's. I wasn't sure how it would transfer if at all to Henle...
    Tammy,

    How far through Wheelock's has your daughter gotten? Do you feel she has mastered what she has studied? It's possible that your daughter could start partway through Henle I, or it could be that she needs to review from the beginning of Henle I. We'd be happy to help you figure out which path is best.

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by tanya View Post
    Hi, Tammy.

    This plan looks solid, but I am wondering if you really need to do English grammar and spelling. Those are subjects we have dropped from high school except as needed. When our students are writing, if we see a trend in grammar misuse, we will pull out a grammar book and review it, but we don't actually do a formal grammar course. Latin takes care of advanced grammar. But if you feel your 10th grader needs a grammar review, that is fine, and EGR V should take care of it. I wasn't sure if she would need grammar or not, but thought I'd put it there just in case.

    Feel free to skip Fable Stage with a high schooler, do a semester of Narrative and a semester of Chreia Maxim. Then the next year, I would spend the entire year in Refutation Confirmation. That is probably the most difficult stage. In 12th grade, you can do Common Topic, and that will be practice in long paper writing. I'd rather see your student master each stage rather than try to get through so many stages so quickly. If you get through Common Topic, your student will have had a great 3 years of writing practice and be ready for college. Good to know I can skip Fable and about slowing them down.

    And I can't remember if your daughter has had Latin. If you are starting at the beginning with Henle I, you will need to take 2 years to complete that course, which put you in Henle II in 12th grade, which is good. She is going through Beginning Latin now with Wheelock's. I wasn't sure how it would transfer if at all to Henle...

    Lastly, if you can't get through Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid in one year, that is fine too. It is a lot if she isn't used to reading that kind of difficult prose. You can always combine Divine Comedy as literature and classical/Christian studies in 12th grade. Oh, and does she know the story of the Iliad and Odyssey? If not, you will want to have her read The Trojan War in her spare time and possibly D'Aulaires' Greek Myths if she doesn't know Greek mythology. That will help her immensely when she takes on Homer. She read the Trojan War last year and we have D'Aulaire's, which she has also read and is now listening in as my 4th grader goes through it.

    This actually looks like a fun 3 years, but don't hesitate to seek guidance if it seems too much for your student at the beginning. We can help you pare it back. Sometimes, the rigor of our curriculum can be overwhelming, and we want her to have a good experience. Some of our parents stagger start dates for subjects when they start with us, so that students have a chance to acclimate to a few subjects at a time. I hadn't thought about staggering start dates. I love that idea and think I will do that so as not to overwhelm her.

    Tanya

    Thank you so much for taking the time to give me some input! I think it looks fun, but she is a VERY different person from me, so who knows? I may be back in short order asking which things are the essentials and which can I punt! I'm really excited about starting!

    Leave a comment:


  • KF2000
    replied
    Oh, geesh, yes, I know how that can be! We moved in here at the beginning of August, and even though we started school relatively on time, it has taken until LAST WEEK for me to feel as though I was getting into a good groove for this year! Nothing like catching up nearly half-way through!

    So glad we could offer some help and I hope you will let us know how it is going as well!
    AMDG,
    Sarah

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
    Hi again, Tammy!
    (I was working on this while Tanya was already answering...so pardon the overlaps of ideas!)

    I am so glad that you are getting a plan fleshed out. And the additional information you provided is great to give us more to go on to tailor our suggestions to your situation. I have included some thoughts of my own below. I will say, my initial thoughts were based on thinking she was finishing up 10th, not heading into tenth. I am so excited for you to have three years (school blocks, actually) to work with, not just two!



    Hope this is helpful!
    AMDG,
    Sarah
    If we were on a normal school year schedule, she would be half way through 10th grade. We’ve had such a crazy last part of 2018 between our family moving and holidays that not much got done. I realized that the way I phrased things wasn’t clear that we are basically starting 10th grade in March once I get her MP stuff. She’s shoring up some deficiencies with HC that I’m calling part of her 9th grade year. Thank you so much for your comments on our plan. I’m really excited about it and I hope she will be too!

    Leave a comment:


  • KF2000
    replied
    Hi again, Tammy!
    (I was working on this while Tanya was already answering...so pardon the overlaps of ideas!)

    I am so glad that you are getting a plan fleshed out. And the additional information you provided is great to give us more to go on to tailor our suggestions to your situation. I have included some thoughts of my own below. I will say, my initial thoughts were based on thinking she was finishing up 10th, not heading into tenth. I am so excited for you to have three years (school blocks, actually) to work with, not just two!

    Originally posted by tehwrd View Post
    Hello again! Okay. I think I have my girl's course plans laid out ... I would love your input. We will be starting her 10th grade year in March and going through the summer, then starting 11th grade whenever we are done with the 10th grade work. Here is what I am thinking though.

    10th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series Scripture & Tradition (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Recitation V, Classical Composition 1 & 2 (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Literature & Poetry 9 (MP)
    Modern History: Modern World History Parts 1 & 2 (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Algebra I (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle I (MP)
    Science: Apologia Biology
    Classical Studies: Iliad, Odyssey, Aenid (MP) **she is wrapping up Greek Studies, Roman History, and Dawn of Civilization with Homeschool Connections

    First, just so you know, the English Grammar Recitation program is cumulative...the lessons really do build on each other from book to book, and I think jumping in at Book V might be really confusing for your daughter - unless she already has a strong grasp of English grammar and it will mostly be review. But the fact that you are putting that in there makes me suspect that what you really want her to have is a refresher year of English grammar to fill in any gaps that she might have. If that is the case, then instead of EGR V, perhaps just get the English Grammar Recitation booklet which contains all the rules in a catechism-like format, and just begin working your way through that gradually, going over each section and making sure she understands all the concepts. If you think she needs more work than that, like actual exercises and whatnot to cement the material, then I would suggest asking MP for either the sixth grade or eighth grade Rod and Staff English books. They will give you thorough explanations of the basics of English grammar along with exercises, which you can either do with your daughter orally, or have her write out. Personally, I prefer the 6th grade book. The 8th is just so hefty, and I even struggle to understand the explanations at times! If your daughter continues with Latin, she will learn grammar better that way anyway. But if you want her to cover English one more time too, those are my suggestions.

    Since you have done the Greek/Roman history, and are planning to do the 9th grade lit, which is medieval, I would suggest doing the Catholic Middle Ages and Rending of Christendom in place of Modern World 1&2. This will move you forward chronologically and overlap nicely, I think. That would make a good tenth grade year, especially since she will be trying to do both literature and classical studies.

    Also, I will tell you from experience, Apologia Bio is just ok, in my opinion. We have used it with our two oldest, and they have learned the basics that they need to. But Novare Science and Math is supposed to be getting their Biology text out soon (fall?) which we are hoping to use with the ones coming up. But yes, for now, Apologia is probably your best bet to use at home while she gets further along in her math sequence.


    11th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series History of the Church (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Classical Composition 3 & 4, Traditional Logic 1 & 2 (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Literature & Poetry 10 (MP) with MP's Poetry & Short Stories American Lit (the following summer)
    Modern History: US History 1 & 2 (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Geometry (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle II (MP)
    Science: Chemistry??? Not sure from where
    Classical Studies: Greek Plays (MP)

    Here, I would make a couple changes, too. First, with history, I think you could build on the classes I mentioned above by having her do Early Modern from 1648-1789, followed by Modern from 1789-1991. This completes the timeframe of western civilization nicely, and would lead well into doing American for senior year, along with government.
    Also, I have not used the Didache History of the Church book, but it is HEFTY. It might be a good overlap with the history courses, or it might be redundant. I am not sure. What might be nice at this point, since she will have had a lot of history, is for her to take some of the other theology courses that are more apologetic-focused. We have really enjoyed anything by Gary Michuta, in particular. The classes on "dispelling historical distortions" have been excellent to take alongside modern European history. This would be a lot more interesting than simply more history, in my opinion.
    As for the Chemistry, the text MP uses is Novare's Chemistry text - from Novare Science and Math. These are EXCELLENT, and we have had great experiences with them. The MPOA is a great way to accomplish it, with virtual labs that fulfill that need nicely.
    Just keep in mind that if this gets to be too much, Logic would be one area to cut back, or move to summer, and that you might end up needing to choose between Classical Studies and Literature, depending on how well she is handling the workload. It's not a failure...you just want her to do what she does do well, you know? This is an ambitious amount, so keep an eye on her.
    Lastly, keep in mind that Latin will be the second half of Henle I...just so you are aware. The guides that MP uses for Henle I divide the book into two years...which is still a rigorous amount of Latin to learn! So 10th and 11th will be aimed at getting through the Henle First Year text. Just clarifying that.


    12th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series Our Moral Life in Christ (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Classical Composition 5 & 6, Material Logic (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Poetry & Prose Book III, Hamlet, A Tale of Two Cities, Pride & Prejudice (MP)
    Modern History: Federalist Papers & Gov't, Deomcracy, Citizenship (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Algebra II (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle III (MP)
    Science: Physics, maybe not sure from where
    Classical Studies: Divine Comedy (MP)

    Couple of notes here...I think the Moral Life in Christ is a great choice, but if you find that you enjoy the individual classes that give more specific topics of concentration, just keep going with that route, too.
    Again, you have both Classical Studies listed here, and Literature. When the students at MP's school do the Divine Comedy, that is their literature for the whole year. It is a meaty study. She might be able to handle both, but she might not, and you might find yourself needing to choose between them, which is fine.
    For Latin, if she has completed Henle First Year, she would be ready to do the Henle Second Year study that MP has.
    For Science, again Novare here - their Introductory Physics book is excellent and would complete what she needs. Again, MPOA is a great way to accomplish it. We missed being able to enroll our oldest for this class, so we ended up using the Conceptual Physics class from HC, and it ended up being well-done as well. So that is another option, since you have that available too.
    Lastly, for history - this is where I would use the three classes from HC to complete a good, solid year of American History - the Early American to 1763, then from 1763-1865, and finishing with 1865-2000. Each of those is 12 weeks long...which is about right for a 36 week school year. It would get it all in. You would have to do the government class as an overlap - in which case I would vote for that in place of some of the English. That is a couple years down the road to decide for sure, but since government is often a state requirement, you might simply need to do that.

    ​​​​​​​The last thing I will add is to take advantage of the test prep for the SAT/ACT that HC offers, and get her started with prepping for those tests. The classes are usually short (4 sessions or so) and can be done as "free time" videos that get her started. Add in some practice on Kahn academy on a regular basis. We shoot for about an hour a week starting in the second half of 10th grade.


    Does this seem like a doable and reasonable undertaking or is it too much? Thank you so much!

    The last thing I would say is to remember that this is a plan - which is subject to change as you get into it. You have covered all the bases nicely, and have provided a meaty, worthwhile amount of content for her. You will not know how much is actually doable until you dig in and get started. The great thing about homeschooling for high school is that you do not have to say she is done and graduated until you are satisfied that she has both met your state requirements, your own personal goals for her education, and what she needs to go on to the college or program she wants to do after high school. We have many, many friends who have traversed this road of high school to college before us...and no two kids' paths look the same. We know many homeschooled high schoolers who are at an age at which they could be done, but have continued on simply because they have not finished the workload they want to have completed before moving on. So having this plan in place is great...now just give her as much time as she needs to complete it!
    Hope this is helpful!
    AMDG,
    Sarah
    Last edited by KF2000; 01-21-2019, 08:49 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tanya
    replied
    Hi, Tammy.

    This plan looks solid, but I am wondering if you really need to do English grammar and spelling. Those are subjects we have dropped from high school except as needed. When our students are writing, if we see a trend in grammar misuse, we will pull out a grammar book and review it, but we don't actually do a formal grammar course. Latin takes care of advanced grammar. But if you feel your 10th grader needs a grammar review, that is fine, and EGR V should take care of it.

    Feel free to skip Fable Stage with a high schooler, do a semester of Narrative and a semester of Chreia Maxim. Then the next year, I would spend the entire year in Refutation Confirmation. That is probably the most difficult stage. In 12th grade, you can do Common Topic, and that will be practice in long paper writing. I'd rather see your student master each stage rather than try to get through so many stages so quickly. If you get through Common Topic, your student will have had a great 3 years of writing practice and be ready for college.

    And I can't remember if your daughter has had Latin. If you are starting at the beginning with Henle I, you will need to take 2 years to complete that course, which put you in Henle II in 12th grade, which is good.

    Lastly, if you can't get through Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid in one year, that is fine too. It is a lot if she isn't used to reading that kind of difficult prose. You can always combine Divine Comedy as literature and classical/Christian studies in 12th grade. Oh, and does she know the story of the Iliad and Odyssey? If not, you will want to have her read The Trojan War in her spare time and possibly D'Aulaires' Greek Myths if she doesn't know Greek mythology. That will help her immensely when she takes on Homer.

    This actually looks like a fun 3 years, but don't hesitate to seek guidance if it seems too much for your student at the beginning. We can help you pare it back. Sometimes, the rigor of our curriculum can be overwhelming, and we want her to have a good experience. Some of our parents stagger start dates for subjects when they start with us, so that students have a chance to acclimate to a few subjects at a time.

    Tanya


    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Hello again! Okay. I think I have my girl's course plans laid out ... I would love your input. We will be starting her 10th grade year in March and going through the summer, then starting 11th grade whenever we are done with the 10th grade work. Here is what I am thinking though.

    10th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series Scripture & Tradition (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Recitation V, Classical Composition 1 & 2 (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Literature & Poetry 9 (MP)
    Modern History: Modern World History Parts 1 & 2 (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Algebra I (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle I (MP)
    Science: Apologia Biology
    Classical Studies: Iliad, Odyssey, Aenid (MP) **she is wrapping up Greek Studies, Roman History, and Dawn of Civilization with Homeschool Connections

    11th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series History of the Church (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Classical Composition 3 & 4, Traditional Logic 1 & 2 (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Literature & Poetry 10 (MP) with MP's Poetry & Short Stories American Lit (the following summer)
    Modern History: US History 1 & 2 (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Geometry (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle II (MP)
    Science: Chemistry??? Not sure from where
    Classical Studies: Greek Plays (MP)

    12th Grade
    Catholic Theology: Didache Series Our Moral Life in Christ (Homeschool Connections)
    English: Classical Composition 5 & 6, Material Logic (MP) and spelling
    Literature: Poetry & Prose Book III, Hamlet, A Tale of Two Cities, Pride & Prejudice (MP)
    Modern History: Federalist Papers & Gov't, Deomcracy, Citizenship (Homeschool Connections)
    Math: Algebra II (CTC math)
    Latin: Henle III (MP)
    Science: Physics, maybe not sure from where
    Classical Studies: Divine Comedy (MP)

    Does this seem like a doable and reasonable undertaking or is it too much? Thank you so much!

    Leave a comment:


  • tehwrd
    replied
    Originally posted by HollyS View Post
    My oldest has switched to MP for 10th grade. She is currently using 8M with a few changes. We settled on First Form Latin, which means she may not get through Fourth Form, but I like to cover math and Latin year round, so we’ll just keep plugging away and get as far as we can. We are doing the accelerated pace of two Classical Composition books per year, so she should get through book 6. I’ve found it helpful to “plan backwards” for high school. I decided 10M seemed like a great place to end high school, and we are striving to finish there. We won’t quite get there for Latin and Composition, and I may sub out a few things like literature books or Christian studies. I know I want her to get to rhetoric and Divine Comedy, so I’ll have to make some substitutions.
    This is immensely helpful! Thank you I didn't think about having her do a lower level core. I will look into what that is and go from there.

    Leave a comment:

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