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    #16
    Re: Physics First Question

    Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
    At HLS-Indy, we transcript Novare Introductory Physics as "Physics 1", and Novare Modeling Physics as "Advanced Physics". Physics 2 has a different description in Indiana state standards, so we would not use that course title.

    On another thread, it was suggested to transcript ASPC as Accelerated Physical Science (or possibly Advanced Physical Science), which is an accurate description of the course. To transcript it as Physics 1 (Honors) neglects the important chemistry concepts covered in the course.

    My opinion regarding AP science on a homeschool transcript (or HLS transcript, which we provide) is that AP science will not be the deciding factor for your student's admission to most colleges (MIT and other highly competitive schools would be exceptions). A straightforward way to verify your student's science credentials is to take the SATII subject tests in chemistry and physics (and biology, if applicable). Most selective schools recognize the credential provided by the SATII subject test. Quality AP science courses are not readily available for most homeschool students (or rural schools, or even many "regular" B&M schools). As was mentioned in another thread, most college admissions officers are looking to see the student took the most rigorous courses available, not a certain number of AP.
    Cindy,

    Thanks for the advice on a title for ASPC.

    My daughter is going to take biology next year with MPOA. What additional would she need to cover to take SAT2 for biology?

    Is Novare Modeling Physics trig or calculus based?
    Last edited by Mom2mthj; 06-25-2018, 09:36 AM.
    Dorinda

    DD 15 - 10th with MPOA(Biology, Novel, Material Logic/Rhetoric ), Lukeion (Greek3, Latin 3)
    DS 13 - 8A with MPOA(Third Form and composition)
    DS 10 - 5M
    DS 5 - K with AAR3

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Physics First Question

      Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
      Cindy,

      Thanks for the advice on a title for ASPC.

      My daughter is going to take biology next year with MPOA. What additional would she need to cover to take SAT2 for biology?

      Is Novare Modeling Physics trig or calculus based?
      I think MPOA biology will be sufficient prep for SAT2 biology exam. But I would check with college board to see what SAT2bio covers, and make sure she covers those topics before you sign up. I do not believe the SAT2 bio test is as rigorous as AP bio exam. Also check with college she may attend. It seems like they value SAT2 chem, physics, and math more than bio. But for some majors SAT2 bio would be a nice credential. It certainly helps validate your homeschool transcript.

      Novare Modeling Physics is trig based, not calculus based. The only calc-based high school physics I know of prepares for AP Physics C. There are now four(!) AP Physics exams: AP Physics1, AP Physics2, AP Physics C (mechanics), AP Physics C (E&M). The C designates calc-based. A student who thoroughly studies Modeling Nature and does the AP prep book should be prepared to sit for the AP Physics1 and/or Physics2 exam. Not that I recommend this. I recommend the SAT2 Physics test instead.
      Cindy Davis
      Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
      ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
      ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
      dd-21 college junior: Nursing

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Physics First Question

        Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
        Novare Modeling Physics is trig based, not calculus based. The only calc-based high school physics I know of prepares for AP Physics C. There are now four(!) AP Physics exams: AP Physics1, AP Physics2, AP Physics C (mechanics), AP Physics C (E&M). The C designates calc-based. A student who thoroughly studies Modeling Nature and does the AP prep book should be prepared to sit for the AP Physics1 and/or Physics2 exam. Not that I recommend this. I recommend the SAT2 Physics test instead.
        I want to add why I don't recommend sitting for the AP exam over SAT2 physics test. Unless you take AP science with an approved provider (college board must verify the syllabus and provide oversight), you cannot list the course as AP on your transcript, even if your student sits for the AP exam and scores a 5! All you can do is submit the score to the college you are attending. Since AP scores do not typically come out until July, and a high school graduate has already applied, been accepted, and registered for college classes by July, there doesn't seem to be a great benefit for all that prep work, finding an AP testing site that allows you to sit, etc. (Students who take AP tests during spring of 11th grade would be able to submit those scores to their college.) But CLEP tests are a more sure-fire way to earn college credit (if that is the goal) and SAT2 subject tests provide a straightforward way to validate the homeschool transcript, with quicker results than AP test.

        These are my observations and opinions. ymmv.
        Cindy Davis
        Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
        ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
        ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
        dd-21 college junior: Nursing

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Physics First Question

          Cindy,

          I hadn't really thought about the disadvantages of self-studying for the physics AP during the senior year. Self-studying for AP Physics C would be pretty daunting. The only thing I would add is that the CLEP physics exam is not going to be counted for credit for the same physics class as AP physics C.
          Dorinda

          DD 15 - 10th with MPOA(Biology, Novel, Material Logic/Rhetoric ), Lukeion (Greek3, Latin 3)
          DS 13 - 8A with MPOA(Third Form and composition)
          DS 10 - 5M
          DS 5 - K with AAR3

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Physics First Question

            Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
            Cindy,

            I hadn't really thought about the disadvantages of self-studying for the physics AP during the senior year. Self-studying for AP Physics C would be pretty daunting. The only thing I would add is that the CLEP physics exam is not going to be counted for credit for the same physics class as AP physics C.
            Dorinda,
            You make a good point there. It reminds me to mention my opinion about getting college credit for core courses in one's major. I think for most STEM majors this is counter-productive. Let's say your student is thinking about med school. They can get college credit for US History and English Composition, no problem with that. But if they get college credit for Calc1 (or PhysicsC), the med school will frown upon that. They want to see the student completing the sequence "in college" (where it is perceived to be more rigorous), rather than student coming into college with earned credits.

            Similarly for Engineering: most students will want to begin with the Calc1 sequence, even if they took Calc BC in high school. It makes for a slightly easier on-ramp as they adjust to college life and allows the student to work through the full Calc sequence at their university, which provides continuity throughout the course of study.

            Another consideration, if a student CLEPs out of freshman lit, but an English lit credit is required for their major, many schools will grant the English credit, but it will not count toward the degree requirements. So the student must take a 200 or 300 level course (instead of a 100 level) as a freshman, which can be daunting! As Jen (formerly) has noted, you definitely want to ask good questions of college admissions officers to be sure the plan for your student's advanced credits does not undermine their academic experience in college.

            Taking a strong academic program in high school prepares students well for the demands of college work, but coming into college with 12-15 hours of credit may not achieve long-term goals. Some people dream of finishing college in 3 years rather than 4, due to carry-in credits, but many universities seek to earn maximum tuition dollars and find ways to keep those credits from counting toward the degree. Ask for specifics.
            Cindy Davis
            Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
            ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
            ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
            dd-21 college junior: Nursing

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Physics First Question

              Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
              Dorinda,
              You make a good point there. It reminds me to mention my opinion about getting college credit for core courses in one's major. I think for most STEM majors this is counter-productive. Let's say your student is thinking about med school. They can get college credit for US History and English Composition, no problem with that. But if they get college credit for Calc1 (or PhysicsC), the med school will frown upon that. They want to see the student completing the sequence "in college" (where it is perceived to be more rigorous), rather than student coming into college with earned credits.

              Similarly for Engineering: most students will want to begin with the Calc1 sequence, even if they took Calc BC in high school. It makes for a slightly easier on-ramp as they adjust to college life and allows the student to work through the full Calc sequence at their university, which provides continuity throughout the course of study.

              Another consideration, if a student CLEPs out of freshman lit, but an English lit credit is required for their major, many schools will grant the English credit, but it will not count toward the degree requirements. So the student must take a 200 or 300 level course (instead of a 100 level) as a freshman, which can be daunting! As Jen (formerly) has noted, you definitely want to ask good questions of college admissions officers to be sure the plan for your student's advanced credits does not undermine their academic experience in college.

              Taking a strong academic program in high school prepares students well for the demands of college work, but coming into college with 12-15 hours of credit may not achieve long-term goals. Some people dream of finishing college in 3 years rather than 4, due to carry-in credits, but many universities seek to earn maximum tuition dollars and find ways to keep those credits from counting toward the degree. Ask for specifics.
              I can't really speak to the med school process as I don't know how much math and physics they require. They are a separate entity looking back at what you have done, but I have a hard time believing that if you take the credit for Calc 1 and you go onto take more Calculus that it would be too big a black mark on the record. I could see it frowned upon if your only math was credit by exam. As for engineering, at the time I placed out of the physics requirement and if I had taken AP Chemistry I could have done the same for that. Both were two course sequences that needed to be checked off, but none of them were in my department. If I had been a Physics or Chemistry or Math major then MAYBE I would have had a second thought about taking the credit, but "easy" doesn't equate to better grades for every student. There are many schools in the "hyper competitive" range that do not grant credit for AP exams because that is just their expected starting point. My feel is if the school offers the credit (and it often will be department specific) then they should know that is OK to take the credit.

              My general philosophy is to take the test (and maybe multiple tests - CLEP, AP, SAT2 - as soon as possible after the class because it is impossible to tell what the policies of any given school will be when you get there, but it is hard to go back and restudy if you wait until you know what the college will accept. You can usually find general guideline on the college website, but they are all subject to change. Those guidelines can help decide where to apply if getting the credit is important and many will do an evaluation once accepted to help make a final decision. Many colleges also offer their own tests to admitted students (that is what I did for my freshman writing class). It all varies widely, so "shopping around" can make a big difference. 36 credits seems to be about the max most will take. I personally had 32 that counted toward my degree requirements at Baylor - Calc 1, 2 semester of physics, Spanish, History, Composition, and Literature - I started off as a sophomore and was able to free up room in my schedule not to graduate early, but to graduate on time while taking some classes of my own choosing.
              Dorinda

              DD 15 - 10th with MPOA(Biology, Novel, Material Logic/Rhetoric ), Lukeion (Greek3, Latin 3)
              DS 13 - 8A with MPOA(Third Form and composition)
              DS 10 - 5M
              DS 5 - K with AAR3

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Physics First Question

                It partly all depends on where the college is located and whether it is an Ivy league, hyper competitive school. Most people are not going to go to a hyper competitive coastal school. All the colleges I know of in the central, west of the Mississippi, east of the Rockies part of the country primarily takes the ACT. I live in the town Arkansas Tech University is located. Almost everyone locally attends there, because it has solid programs at a good price. Even if they are wanting to graduate from something a little more prestigious, it has a good transfer program after the second year.

                My sister graduated from a high school so remote that they couldn't offer high school science and math. All the kids had to be dual enrolled with a community college and taught via video conferencing. All of the little schools in that area had to do that, but couldn't consolidate because they already had kids on buses for hours a day to get to schools that graduate twenty kids a year. She barely scraped under the limit to be a freshman and keep eligibility for freshman scholarships. She graduated early and was able to vault into a much more prestigious college for graduate school, and get a high ranking job with the Forest Service.

                My oldest just graduated from the local high school, which has an insanely good STEM program in 10th-12th. I mean, my high school offered no AP and could barely afford to buy worms for dissection. He was manipulating the DNA of bacteria, and has fallen in love with lab work. ATU has a program that involves three years of study on campus and one year of interning/study at a teaching hospital, and has him ready to sit for his Licensed Clinical Pathologist exam at the end of it, with a history of 100% job placement for years, and positions him to continue on for graduate work to specialize in his field. His AP science results are letting him get out of the basic courses in his degree so that he can to those 4000 level classes in three years. They still only offer generic, very little math Physical Science to 9th graders.

                I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone said, and the other posters obviously have much more experience with very good schools, but I just wanted to throw out some experiences with a school that is more realistic for those who aren't headed to the Ivy leagues. For us that was obvious long ago. My oldest is mildly autistic and still needed special classes in English through the tenth grade. He's barely ready to be across town at this point, much less cross country. If it isn't so obvious, going as advanced as possible is still good advice.
                Miah - married to Warcabbage, 3 boys, BS in social work, AS in Electrical Engineering Technology

                Evulcarrot - 18, freshman in college, Medical Technology , mild autism
                Battlebroccoli - 17, lives with grandma, attends a special high school program part time
                Doomsprout - 10, highly verbal moderate autism, anxiety, motor delays, sensory processing issues - SC 4 with R&S 4

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Physics First Question

                  Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
                  I can't really speak to the med school process as I don't know how much math and physics they require. They are a separate entity looking back at what you have done, but I have a hard time believing that if you take the credit for Calc 1 and you go onto take more Calculus that it would be too big a black mark on the record. ...
                  I think you are right about this. Graduate schools are not going to "ding" a student for early Calc. credit as long as the undergraduate courses are rigorous: if the student uses credits earned in high school to simply skip math & science, then yes, that looks bad to a medical school. Quite reasonably, I think. But if the student uses the credits in order to do coursework that's more challenging -- more advanced math or sciences, or really heavyweight intro courses -- that will look very good to graduate schools.

                  ETA: Cindy's points about being careful with advanced standing are well-considered. If the student is trying to place into more challenging maths and/or into (for example) 200-level courses to meet the English requirements she will want to be confident of her skills. That said, often the 200-level English classes are just a lot more fun for a good writer, even if she's also a STEM major. And a student who really wants to run with her math might wish to be able to sit upper level courses earlier in her college career: again, just a lot more variety, more challenge and perhaps more "fun" to go along with the hard work. At least for some students.

                  OTOH, excellent students might very well want to consolidate & master before moving forward in their studies.

                  Dorinda, you may know this already, but in case it is of interest to anybody: a lot of folks homeschooling Physics C seem to like PA Homeschoolers and that gives you the AP designation on the transcript; it's my current plan if my older one wants Physics C. You can also submit your own course plan to the AP folks and get it approved, but I've not done that (some people on the Well Trained Mind boards have).
                  Last edited by serendipitous journey; 06-27-2018, 09:37 AM.
                  Ana, mama to
                  ds A, 7A
                  ds N, 3A

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