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    Physics First Question

    I am wondering how physics first looks on a transcript. I have been planning to use the Novare advanced track sequence, but I am concerned how ASPC will look on a transcript. Is it going to look like physical science? We are finishing up Novare Physical Science now in 8th grade. Another online provider offers a course using ASPC and calls it Physics 1 (Honors). They have a Physics 2 (Honors) course recommended for 12th grade that uses Modeling Physics text.

    9th Physics 1
    10th Chemistry
    11th Biology
    12th Physics 2


    My concern is that the sequence will not look like an advanced track science sequence. I am also concerned that this doesn't leave any room for AP, unless we skip the vector physics. She will be taking AP US History in 9th and we plan for her to take AP Latin in 11th. Will it matter if she doesn't have AP science?
    2018-2019:
    DD 14 | 9th | Foerster Alg, MPOA (Biology, Novel, Henle, AP US, Composition), HSC (Didache Intro)
    DS 12 | 6M | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)
    DD 10 | 5A | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)

    #2
    Re: Physics First Question

    Hi Jennifer,

    As always, it only matters for her goals for her own future. If she were gunning for MIT, then she would want to take as many math and science credits as possible. It she was gunning for Yale, she'd take as many Liberal Arts classes as possible. If she was gunning for Northwestern, she'd probably fall somewhere in the middle. As I mentioned to Dorinda on the other thread, I can't emphasize enough calling the Admissions office of a school she might be interested in. The Admin officers are happy to chat with prospective parents.

    Now, on science.

    It is becoming quite standard for 9th graders to take non-vector physics and that will be their only physics class during high school. WHY? The answer is quite simple: MATH. Students are busy taking high school math, trying to let their cognitive abilities catch up to their science abilities. And frankly, the lynch-pin is high school chemistry. As it turns out, success in chemistry is usually highest if the student has completed Algebra 2. Chemistry is largely the ability to apply algebraic thinking. I did a math analysis with a colleague when I taught high school chemistry at a DoD high school three years ago. There was a strong correlation between a student's successful completion of Algebra 2 *before* attempting high school chemistry, and the student's grade outcome in chemistry. In addition, 11th graders' outcomes FAR outpaced the 10th graders, if only because they had more cognitive development in the tool box.


    To transcript your child's high school science classes:

    9th: Honors (Advanced?) Physical Science
    10th BIOLOGY - this is the place holder in the science sequence so that a student can continue to take more high school math!
    11th - Chemistry
    12th - AP, "other science" (marine biology or Human Anatomy fits here), or skip. Some seniors are busy taking AP humanities classes, and the 3 science credits are enough, esp paired with other amazing coursework on a transcript.




    Hope that helped.



    Jen
    DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

    DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

    DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

    DS, 11 yrs, 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

    All homeschooled.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Physics First Question

      Thanks Jen.

      This is interesting because I was aiming for the Novare advanced track sequence which means she would hit chemistry in 10th while taking Algebra II.
      ASPC / Geometry
      Advanced Chemistry / Algebra II
      Advanced Biology / Precalculus
      Vector Physics / Calculus


      I was planning on ASPC and geometry for 9th, but now I really don't know which way to go. I don't think she has any idea where she wants to go to school. I really liked the idea of advanced biology after chemistry and physics, but I don't want to inadvertently limit her future choices when my goal is to keep them open until we figure it out.
      2018-2019:
      DD 14 | 9th | Foerster Alg, MPOA (Biology, Novel, Henle, AP US, Composition), HSC (Didache Intro)
      DS 12 | 6M | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)
      DD 10 | 5A | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Physics First Question

        Cindy can comment when she returns from her trip, since she knows Novare better than I do.

        However, if Advanced Bio is the equivalent of AP Bio, then yes, your sequence makes sense. Some students do OK with chemistry in 10th ( I certainly did), but these would be the top math students, too. Success in math = success in chemistry.



        Jen
        DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

        DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

        DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

        DS, 11 yrs, 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

        All homeschooled.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Physics First Question

          Thanks Jen. Any thoughts on whether Algebra II or Geometry should be taken first?
          2018-2019:
          DD 14 | 9th | Foerster Alg, MPOA (Biology, Novel, Henle, AP US, Composition), HSC (Didache Intro)
          DS 12 | 6M | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)
          DD 10 | 5A | Singapore, AAS, MPOA (Composition)

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Physics First Question

            Originally posted by jenniferjb View Post
            Thanks Jen. Any thoughts on whether Algebra II or Geometry should be taken first?
            Personally, I see strong reasons to take Algebra I and II consecutively As my oldest put it to me, "Mom, the only reason there needs to be an Algebra II is that there is too much content in Algebra to learn in a single year. Half of Algebra II is either a review of Algebra I or an advancement into Trig."

            The reason, as I understand it, that geometry was inserted into the algebra sequence was to allow a student to have exposure before taking the PSAT/SAT. An average student would need to be most of the way through geometry before taking the test. That said, if your student is on a planned accelerated math sequence, personally I can see merit in taking the algebras back to back. I believe that *is* how HLS and MPOA sequence high school mathematics.


            Jen
            DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

            DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

            DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

            DS, 11 yrs, 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

            All homeschooled.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Physics First Question

              Originally posted by jenniferjb View Post
              Thanks Jen.

              This is interesting because I was aiming for the Novare advanced track sequence which means she would hit chemistry in 10th while taking Algebra II.
              ASPC / Geometry
              Advanced Chemistry / Algebra II
              Advanced Biology / Precalculus
              Vector Physics / Calculus


              I was planning on ASPC and geometry for 9th, but now I really don't know which way to go. I don't think she has any idea where she wants to go to school. I really liked the idea of advanced biology after chemistry and physics, but I don't want to inadvertently limit her future choices when my goal is to keep them open until we figure it out.
              I would suggest simply switching the Ad. Bio with the Ad. Chem...that gives you the time you need to complete Algebra II. Any reason not to do that?

              But the way, I have two high schoolers and here are their tracks given their aptitudes:

              #1: Non-Stem-y child (who happens to count Chemistry as her favorite subject though!)
              8th- physical science w/algebra I
              9th- bio w/geometry
              10th- chem w/algebra II
              11th- physics w/precalc
              12- anatomy/physiology w/finishing precalc (doing it all on her own, so slower pace)

              #2: Possibly Stem-y child
              8th- physical science with/algebra I
              9th- conceptual physics with/geometry
              10th- biology w/algebra II
              11th- chem w/precalc
              12th- vector physics w/?? (probably calc if find a local class)

              Just some more examples for you!
              AMDG,
              Sarah
              2018-2019
              DD 18 - 12th || DS 15 - 10th || DD 13 - 8th || DD 11 - 6th || DD 9 - 4th
              DD 7 - 1st || DD 5 - mix of 1st & JrK || +DS, 2-21-16+ || DS 14 months

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Physics First Question

                [QUOTE]
                Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                #1: Non-Stem-y child (who happens to count Chemistry as her favorite subject though!)

                If I may remark on a "fine point" here about chemistry, just to make a critical distinction. High school chemistry can be approached in multiple ways. One of the popular ways floating around the homeschool textbook market is what I call the "conceptual" way: the student learns vocabulary, terms, has fun balance equations, memorizing the elements on the periodic table, maybe learning about some of the historical figures, and does some light algebra. Calorimetry is about the hardest math in the book, and it's not a deep handling. This handling of chemistry might give the student the idea that he or she loves the topic (not saying that this is your daughter, Sarah, just using this as an opportunity to expound). BTW, this is what Apologia Chemistry does and is actually why, I personally, as an actual chemist, loathe the Apologia Chemistry textbook. Apologia is not a deep enough handling of chemistry for a student who plans to use that course in his or her future. Of course, the Apologia text "gets the student a credit" and sometimes that IS the goal for that student. A future English major probably won't care to go deep into chemistry, so getting the credit on the high school transcript is the goal and that is achievable with the Apologia text.

                But, please do understand this (Dear Reader): if your chemistry student isn't using a calculator 85% of the time, he is not prepping for a future in chemistry. Chemistry is math, applied math, period.





                8th- physical science w/algebra I
                9th- bio w/geometry
                10th- chem w/algebra II
                11th- physics w/precalc
                12- anatomy/physiology w/finishing precalc (doing it all on her own, so slower pace)

                #2: Possibly Stem-y child
                8th- physical science with/algebra I
                9th- conceptual physics with/geometry
                10th- biology w/algebra II
                11th- chem w/precalc
                12th- vector physics w/?? (probably calc if find a local class)

                Just some more examples for you!


                Some more perspective, too, as long as we are discussing high school. B&M high schools have long since moved to 4 high school math credits. This isn't new, either (this happened in 2011 in the Memphis area high school my second son attended, and in the DoD high school in 2012). That might be something some of you want to factor into high school planning.

                But, please, everyone, do understand that there is no one "right way" to get through high school. The single guiding light needs to be the student's eventual goals. Competitive schools are requiring more and more, including the 4 math/4 English credits. BUT... it is becoming expected that "nearly all kids go to college now". College is a BIG market. YOUR CHILD WILL BE ACCEPTED TO A COLLEGE, TRUST ME. Colleges make huge bank from today's kids. Where the biggest differentiator comes in: WHICH college is in your child's sights? Just because, as my MIL says, "There's a lid for every pot" does not mean that a student can waltz up to a competitive school without early, serious, well-researched consideration. That is the point of nearly all my recent posts.

                Get on the phone. Call the Admin department a college you think might be in your child's sights. Do it today. DON'T GUESS. College is too expensive and is to be considered an investment. You all have 4-6 years to figure out the plan. Use your time wisely.



                <Of course, if you have more than 6 years, do NOT call, or at least don't tell the Admin officer that you have an 8 yr old, ha, ha.>




                Jen
                DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

                DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

                DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

                DS, 11 yrs, 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

                All homeschooled.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Physics First Question

                  Her Chem was Novare, through the MPOA. It was excellent content, taught by a highly enthusiastic teacher, who really knew her stuff. All around fantastic experience - which is probably a large part of what makes it her favorite - it addition to the orderliness of it all.

                  Just pointing that out because I used to wonder about being able to have high quality high school science at home - and the MPOA really helped us do that, and do it well.

                  AMDG,
                  Sarah
                  2018-2019
                  DD 18 - 12th || DS 15 - 10th || DD 13 - 8th || DD 11 - 6th || DD 9 - 4th
                  DD 7 - 1st || DD 5 - mix of 1st & JrK || +DS, 2-21-16+ || DS 14 months

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Physics First Question

                    I'll chime in on the Algebra 1, 2, Geometry sequence. We put Geometry/ Physics in the middle for my kiddo because she hit Algebra early and had already had Physical Science. In this instance, I wanted a year of applying the Algebra 1 before jumping into Algebra 2. For her, it's been the right choice, although not without speed bumps. I really agree that doing the Algebras back to back makes a lot of sense.

                    We're doing Chemistry/ Algebra 2 together this year, but not using Novare. We're working with friends who have chosen a different book. Our book supposes Algebra 2 as a co-requisite (Zumdahl W of Chem). Honestly, I would consider holding off on the Chemistry, but like Sarah's dd, my kiddo loves Chemistry, and working with the slightly older friend helps dd want to stretch herself to understand the material. Last year she self-studied Trig because she wanted it to better understand Physics.

                    So, YMMV, and like the others have said, looking at your kid and their path is important. Dd has a short list of colleges she's interested in. While we're not holding her to those, I do think they are well selected for her. It's nice because I have at least an idea of what those schools are looking for on a transcript.
                    Bean

                    DD- 9M with subs

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Physics First Question

                      Originally posted by bean View Post
                      I'll chime in on the Algebra 1, 2, Geometry sequence. We put Geometry/ Physics in the middle for my kiddo because she hit Algebra early and had already had Physical Science. In this instance, I wanted a year of applying the Algebra 1 before jumping into Algebra 2. For her, it's been the right choice, although not without speed bumps. I really agree that doing the Algebras back to back makes a lot of sense.

                      We're doing Chemistry/ Algebra 2 together this year, but not using Novare. We're working with friends who have chosen a different book. Our book supposes Algebra 2 as a co-requisite (Zumdahl W of Chem).

                      Professor Zumdahl was my Chem 107 and 108 professor at UIllinois in the 80's when UIllinois' chemistry program was ranked as world class. He always opened each first day of class with some fantastic demo experiment. He was also super handsome and a sharp dresser. Good times....



                      Jen
                      DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

                      DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

                      DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

                      DS, 11 yrs, 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

                      All homeschooled.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Physics First Question

                        Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post
                        Professor Zumdahl was my Chem 107 and 108 professor at UIllinois in the 80's when UIllinois' chemistry program was ranked as world class. He always opened each first day of class with some fantastic demo experiment. He was also super handsome and a sharp dresser. Good times....



                        Jen
                        That is awesome. How fun!
                        Bean

                        DD- 9M with subs

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Physics First Question

                          Originally posted by jenniferjb View Post
                          Thanks Jen.

                          This is interesting because I was aiming for the Novare advanced track sequence which means she would hit chemistry in 10th while taking Algebra II.
                          ASPC / Geometry
                          Advanced Chemistry / Algebra II
                          Advanced Biology / Precalculus
                          Vector Physics / Calculus


                          I was planning on ASPC and geometry for 9th, but now I really don't know which way to go. I don't think she has any idea where she wants to go to school. I really liked the idea of advanced biology after chemistry and physics, but I don't want to inadvertently limit her future choices when my goal is to keep them open until we figure it out.
                          May I suggest?
                          9th ASPC / Algebra2
                          10th Adv Chem / Geometry
                          11th Adv Bio / PreCalc
                          12th Vector Physics / Calculus

                          This gives the science sequence you want, while still completing algebra2 before chemistry, which is highly recommended. (Jen already mentioned the research correlating success in chem after algebra2)
                          She will have completed the algebra1/2 and geometry sequence before taking the PSAT in 11th, when it *could* lead to National Merit Qualification.

                          I would also mention that *any* student considering a STEM field, including medicine, should definitely take vector physics in high school. It is more important for college and med school acceptance than human anatomy. Anatomy and Physiology is a fascinating course, but vector physics is essential for any science-minded student.
                          Cindy Davis
                          Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                          ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
                          ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
                          dd-21 college junior: Nursing

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Physics First Question

                            Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                            I would suggest simply switching the Ad. Bio with the Ad. Chem...that gives you the time you need to complete Algebra II. Any reason not to do that?

                            But the way, I have two high schoolers and here are their tracks given their aptitudes:

                            #1: Non-Stem-y child (who happens to count Chemistry as her favorite subject though!)
                            8th- physical science w/algebra I
                            9th- bio w/geometry
                            10th- chem w/algebra II
                            11th- physics w/precalc
                            12- anatomy/physiology w/finishing precalc (doing it all on her own, so slower pace)

                            #2: Possibly Stem-y child
                            8th- physical science with/algebra I
                            9th- conceptual physics with/geometry
                            10th- biology w/algebra II
                            11th- chem w/precalc
                            12th- vector physics w/?? (probably calc if find a local class)

                            Just some more examples for you!
                            AMDG,
                            Sarah
                            Sarah,
                            Just curious, what text are you using for "conceptual physics"? If it is Novare Introductory Physics, a better descriptor would be "algebra-based physics". There are many conceptual physics courses available, but that term implies little to no math, which is not an accurate description of the Novare text. In fact, the reason I love Novare Introductory Physics text is the way it teaches an algebra student apply math to analyze the physical world.

                            A reason *not* to switch Adv Bio and Adv Chem, is that a truly Advanced Biology course will require knowledge of chemistry. Adv Bio expects chem as a prerequisite.
                            Cindy Davis
                            Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                            ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
                            ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
                            dd-21 college junior: Nursing

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Physics First Question

                              Originally posted by jenniferjb View Post
                              I am wondering how physics first looks on a transcript. I have been planning to use the Novare advanced track sequence, but I am concerned how ASPC will look on a transcript. Is it going to look like physical science? We are finishing up Novare Physical Science now in 8th grade. Another online provider offers a course using ASPC and calls it Physics 1 (Honors). They have a Physics 2 (Honors) course recommended for 12th grade that uses Modeling Physics text.

                              9th Physics 1
                              10th Chemistry
                              11th Biology
                              12th Physics 2


                              My concern is that the sequence will not look like an advanced track science sequence. I am also concerned that this doesn't leave any room for AP, unless we skip the vector physics. She will be taking AP US History in 9th and we plan for her to take AP Latin in 11th. Will it matter if she doesn't have AP science?
                              At HLS-Indy, we transcript Novare Introductory Physics as "Physics 1", and Novare Modeling Physics as "Advanced Physics". Physics 2 has a different description in Indiana state standards, so we would not use that course title.

                              On another thread, it was suggested to transcript ASPC as Accelerated Physical Science (or possibly Advanced Physical Science), which is an accurate description of the course. To transcript it as Physics 1 (Honors) neglects the important chemistry concepts covered in the course.

                              My opinion regarding AP science on a homeschool transcript (or HLS transcript, which we provide) is that AP science will not be the deciding factor for your student's admission to most colleges (MIT and other highly competitive schools would be exceptions). A straightforward way to verify your student's science credentials is to take the SATII subject tests in chemistry and physics (and biology, if applicable). Most selective schools recognize the credential provided by the SATII subject test. Quality AP science courses are not readily available for most homeschool students (or rural schools, or even many "regular" B&M schools). As was mentioned in another thread, most college admissions officers are looking to see the student took the most rigorous courses available, not a certain number of AP.
                              Cindy Davis
                              Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
                              ds-24 college graduate: working, reading, writing
                              ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
                              dd-21 college junior: Nursing

                              Comment

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